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This is partly confirmation bias. Millions of officers, we’re gonna have bad ones. Obviously we need to improve, but to think that officers who have at least so

This is partly confirmation bias. Millions of officers, we’re gonna have bad ones. Obviously we need to improve, but to think that officers who have at least some amount of vetting are going to do worse than a security force is utter denial of the human condition. Look at South Africa, they have security forces. Or look at India, they too have a police force. But in South Africa, their security force is only available for the wealthy, while in India, they’re actually corrupt police are paid off daily. You don’t want to leave your house without cash to bribe a cop. And if you don’t, you get beat. I’d rather be in the US with their policing than have a citizens army of security, or almost any police force.

MengerSponge 5y ago
Yes, we're gonna have bad officers. What happens next? Are they shunned? Forced out of the profession? This isn't some abstract hypothetical. We have generations of police who "washed out" of training because they weren't bad enough. It's important to have an accurate diagnosis when proposing a course of treatment. https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-features/racism-white-supremacy-american-policing-1167304/ https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-features/racism...
- croutonwagon 5y ago
  It is.. But at the same time, its a completely decentralized system and there are MANY that do a very good job at washing out the bad ones. There are plenty that deserve criticism, and even federal investigation/intervention. But by and large the system works. There are millions of police, and hundreds of millions of encounters daily across a huge range of investigations and issues. boiling it down to twitter levels of context is bad and applying such broad strokes is also equally bad. Its certainly not going to encourage good ones to sign up. I know with the way this type of stuff is being portrayed, its a no win for most police, they could quadruple the salaries overnight and some would still balk, because no matter what it a loss.
- wearywanderer 5y ago
  Shunning is crap. Instead of resorting to such dark-age extralegal tactics, how about we get some prosecutors who do their damn jobs and prosecute criminal police? Unfortunately prosecutors are generally elected and many people don't want to admit the root of the problem is with the electorate who choose to elect and re-elect prosecutors who don't want to do their jobs.
  - MengerSponge 5y ago
    Depends on the severity of the act. Shunning is excellent punishment for low-level misbehavior. If you allow misbehavior to accrue and expand, eventually you'll get to a case where you need a prosecutor. That prosecutor's job would be easier if the criminal officer's colleagues would testify against them, which goes back (again) to social mores. Prosecutors rely on cops to get their prosecutions, and if the prosecutor is the only one who faces repercussions for charging a cop, then obviously they're going to be loathe to charge any cops. Honestly, though, the system isn't recoverable in most regions. American police, the ideological successors to slave catchers, suffer a rot that is too deep. Many are literally white supremacist gangs. It isn't a system that can be reformed.
shkkmo 5y ago
Cops have legal protections that let them get away with murder when nobody else would. Some might see that as a downside when selecting who you want providing your security. Instead of comlaining about private security forces, why not fix policing in this country so that it actually makes people feel safer?
- watwut 5y ago
  The people who pay got vigilante private security don't do it to avoid police planting evidence in them. They do it to have someome to attack the others, someone under their control. They have zero incentive to prevent private security from planting evidence on others. Gangs in fact did not ended up to be fair non corrupt equivalent of police either.
  - shkkmo 5y ago
    I'm much less concerned with them planting evidence on me than I am with them shooting a friend or family member who is experiencing a mental health crisis.
    - plorkyeran 5y ago
      Or shooting my dog just because it's there.
    - watwut 5y ago
      That is the same category. People who will call private security in your friend or family don't mind violence that much. And in case you are the one calling, you don't need private security as much as private mental health professional. Because that knowledge and exlerience of mental health crisis comes with being mental health professional - not with security.
      - shkkmo 5y ago
        > People who will call private security in your friend or family don't mind violence that much. If private security shoots someone having a mental health crisis, they have far fewer legal protections to help them avoid consequences. This is precisely the point I have been making.
irrational 5y ago
This isn't confirmation bias. This is just the recent ones that came immediately to mind. New stories come out daily. https://mappingpoliceviolence.org/ https://mappingpoliceviolence.org/
- asdff 5y ago
  That's sort of a biased source you link. It lists deaths, but often times these deaths come as a result of someone threatening a cop with a deadly weapon. There's been like two dozen shootings from the LAPD so far this year, and most were due to someone charging an armed cop with a knife or a similar suicidal incident. I think just looking at use of force without context will give you a pretty biased view. Certainly it's been overused, but a lot of times, especially with the mental health crisis going on where people who are insane and a danger to others are allowed to refuse treatment, it is justified when another life is at stake.
  - BoorishBears 5y ago
    > someone charging an armed cop with a knife or a similar suicidal incident It's weird reading that when I was a kid I was constantly told cops are heroes because they put their lives on the line where most wouldn't or couldn't. Like I'm an untrained bumpkin, unfortunately if someone had a knife and I had a gun, I can't really think of much more than shooting them. But somewhere along the line the standard for police dropped down to the standard for me? The untrained bumpkin? Since pretty much every time I hear cop by suicide it's apparent, and people still say "well what would *you* do" like that's the smoking gun... - It even extends to more casual cases, the other day there was a video of a lady mooning an officer. The thing is the lady was clearly let go before that fairly stupid act, and last I checked mooning someone doesn't imply you've suddenly become a lethal threat.. but the cop was just so out of shape that shortly after realizing they couldn't keep up with this not very fast person they ended up tasering this person on asphalt. A fully grown adult out cold at running pace straight into asphalt because a cop is so out of shape they can't chase a person who mooned them That's not the picture I grew up with... - I honestly don't have a problem with that though! I don't think we have to force people to gamble their lives for others. There's a certain sense of, "if I can't do it, I can't make someone else do it". But if that's the case then we need to drop a lot of the pretence to traditional policing cops have right now. Like the pay and pensions are all based around the hazard, but it's safer than being a cab driver. Maybe because now fearing for your life is an out to kill people reaching for wallets. And a lot of interactions they have with people, like speed enforcement should probably be dropped, if we're just admitting lethal force has moved up a few notches. And maybe they need to have attachments with them for certain calls. If someone is showing signs of mental instability, someone experienced with dealing with that vs applying lethal force should be directly involved.
na85 5y ago
>Millions of officers, we’re gonna have bad ones. What are the purported good officers doing about it and why aren't they getting any results?
rorykoehler 5y ago
Just a few bad apples? The fact that they feel comfortable doing stuff like the head kicking shows there is a organisational cultural issue in the police. If the citizens didn’t film it they’d be on their merry way and not a word would be said.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
ngc248 5y ago
Inndian here, just like someone was saying upthread, there are millions of police offices in India. Lets not get carried away and say all are corrupt annd people are not getting beat left and right as you seem to inisinuate.

MengerSponge 5y ago

Yes, we're gonna have bad officers. What happens next? Are they shunned? Forced out of the profession? This isn't some abstract hypothetical. We have generations of police who "washed out" of training because they weren't bad enough. It's important to have an accurate diagnosis when proposing a course of treatment. https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-features/racism-white-supremacy-american-policing-1167304/ https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-features/racism...

croutonwagon 5y ago
It is.. But at the same time, its a completely decentralized system and there are MANY that do a very good job at washing out the bad ones. There are plenty that deserve criticism, and even federal investigation/intervention. But by and large the system works. There are millions of police, and hundreds of millions of encounters daily across a huge range of investigations and issues. boiling it down to twitter levels of context is bad and applying such broad strokes is also equally bad. Its certainly not going to encourage good ones to sign up. I know with the way this type of stuff is being portrayed, its a no win for most police, they could quadruple the salaries overnight and some would still balk, because no matter what it a loss.
wearywanderer 5y ago
Shunning is crap. Instead of resorting to such dark-age extralegal tactics, how about we get some prosecutors who do their damn jobs and prosecute criminal police? Unfortunately prosecutors are generally elected and many people don't want to admit the root of the problem is with the electorate who choose to elect and re-elect prosecutors who don't want to do their jobs.
- MengerSponge 5y ago
  Depends on the severity of the act. Shunning is excellent punishment for low-level misbehavior. If you allow misbehavior to accrue and expand, eventually you'll get to a case where you need a prosecutor. That prosecutor's job would be easier if the criminal officer's colleagues would testify against them, which goes back (again) to social mores. Prosecutors rely on cops to get their prosecutions, and if the prosecutor is the only one who faces repercussions for charging a cop, then obviously they're going to be loathe to charge any cops. Honestly, though, the system isn't recoverable in most regions. American police, the ideological successors to slave catchers, suffer a rot that is too deep. Many are literally white supremacist gangs. It isn't a system that can be reformed.

shkkmo 5y ago

Cops have legal protections that let them get away with murder when nobody else would. Some might see that as a downside when selecting who you want providing your security. Instead of comlaining about private security forces, why not fix policing in this country so that it actually makes people feel safer?

watwut 5y ago
The people who pay got vigilante private security don't do it to avoid police planting evidence in them. They do it to have someome to attack the others, someone under their control. They have zero incentive to prevent private security from planting evidence on others. Gangs in fact did not ended up to be fair non corrupt equivalent of police either.
- shkkmo 5y ago
  I'm much less concerned with them planting evidence on me than I am with them shooting a friend or family member who is experiencing a mental health crisis.
  - plorkyeran 5y ago
    Or shooting my dog just because it's there.
  - watwut 5y ago
    That is the same category. People who will call private security in your friend or family don't mind violence that much. And in case you are the one calling, you don't need private security as much as private mental health professional. Because that knowledge and exlerience of mental health crisis comes with being mental health professional - not with security.
    - shkkmo 5y ago
      > People who will call private security in your friend or family don't mind violence that much. If private security shoots someone having a mental health crisis, they have far fewer legal protections to help them avoid consequences. This is precisely the point I have been making.

irrational 5y ago

This isn't confirmation bias. This is just the recent ones that came immediately to mind. New stories come out daily. https://mappingpoliceviolence.org/ https://mappingpoliceviolence.org/

asdff 5y ago
That's sort of a biased source you link. It lists deaths, but often times these deaths come as a result of someone threatening a cop with a deadly weapon. There's been like two dozen shootings from the LAPD so far this year, and most were due to someone charging an armed cop with a knife or a similar suicidal incident. I think just looking at use of force without context will give you a pretty biased view. Certainly it's been overused, but a lot of times, especially with the mental health crisis going on where people who are insane and a danger to others are allowed to refuse treatment, it is justified when another life is at stake.
- BoorishBears 5y ago
  > someone charging an armed cop with a knife or a similar suicidal incident It's weird reading that when I was a kid I was constantly told cops are heroes because they put their lives on the line where most wouldn't or couldn't. Like I'm an untrained bumpkin, unfortunately if someone had a knife and I had a gun, I can't really think of much more than shooting them. But somewhere along the line the standard for police dropped down to the standard for me? The untrained bumpkin? Since pretty much every time I hear cop by suicide it's apparent, and people still say "well what would *you* do" like that's the smoking gun... - It even extends to more casual cases, the other day there was a video of a lady mooning an officer. The thing is the lady was clearly let go before that fairly stupid act, and last I checked mooning someone doesn't imply you've suddenly become a lethal threat.. but the cop was just so out of shape that shortly after realizing they couldn't keep up with this not very fast person they ended up tasering this person on asphalt. A fully grown adult out cold at running pace straight into asphalt because a cop is so out of shape they can't chase a person who mooned them That's not the picture I grew up with... - I honestly don't have a problem with that though! I don't think we have to force people to gamble their lives for others. There's a certain sense of, "if I can't do it, I can't make someone else do it". But if that's the case then we need to drop a lot of the pretence to traditional policing cops have right now. Like the pay and pensions are all based around the hazard, but it's safer than being a cab driver. Maybe because now fearing for your life is an out to kill people reaching for wallets. And a lot of interactions they have with people, like speed enforcement should probably be dropped, if we're just admitting lethal force has moved up a few notches. And maybe they need to have attachments with them for certain calls. If someone is showing signs of mental instability, someone experienced with dealing with that vs applying lethal force should be directly involved.

na85 5y ago

>Millions of officers, we’re gonna have bad ones. What are the purported good officers doing about it and why aren't they getting any results?

rorykoehler 5y ago

Just a few bad apples? The fact that they feel comfortable doing stuff like the head kicking shows there is a organisational cultural issue in the police. If the citizens didn’t film it they’d be on their merry way and not a word would be said.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

ngc248 5y ago

Inndian here, just like someone was saying upthread, there are millions of police offices in India. Lets not get carried away and say all are corrupt annd people are not getting beat left and right as you seem to inisinuate.