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"Do nothing"? No curated/moderated/policed App Store? No storage/distribution network for applications? No vetted and trusted secure authentication and payme

by jachee 5y ago

"Do nothing"? No curated/moderated/policed App Store? No storage/distribution network for applications? No vetted and trusted secure authentication and payment systems? No meticulously-created hardware in the first place? Yep, that sounds about right. They're just "doing nothing" and don't deserve to be able to run their businesses while other people build on top of their platforms.

paulgb 5y ago
I agree that “do nothing” is inaccurate (I think Ben later walked it back). But overall, I'm surprised how common the take is in the software industry that this is a fine state of things. How much of Apple's cut is because they run a good distribution network, vs. how much is because they are the only distribution channel? Surely we don't think it's a bad thing that desktop software went in the direction of being an open platform (which, it's worth noting, may not have gone in that direction without DOJ intervention). Why aren't we rooting for the same on mobile devices, which have become just as essential?
- cmorgan31 5y ago
  If I want a walled garden should I be allowed to have it? I understand individuals want to exercise control over things they own. I’m not interested in forcing brands to make their products open platform. I don’t want an open platform. I want a locked down and predictable platform. If you would rather argue that the distributor fee is too high I’d be inclined to agree.
  - paulgb 5y ago
    Sure, I have no problem with there being a walled garden as long as users who want to have a way to opt out. Curated app stores do have value and I don't think they should disappear. I even think it is fine for niche platforms to exclusively have walled gardens. > I don’t want an open platform. Do you think the state of the world would be better if desktops were not open platforms? I'm genuinely curious because this is something I just can't relate to.
    - cmorgan31 5y ago
      You want walled gardens with check points? What is the point in building the wall if you can just leave or enter when you desire? I’m interested in a digital prison for my phone. I have no desire to entertain the concept of hypothetical arguments which ultimately boil down to - I also want some of this money, let us in.
  - zamadatix 5y ago
    To expound on the other comments a bit more clearly: if it's the drive of a large portion of consumers that they only want to consume apps from the App Store because of the ecosystem that provides it should not require forcing everyone that has an iPhone to use the App Store, usage of the App Store and interest in apps working to get on it/pay dues should be a natural results of a large percentage of the customer base choosing to force apps to do such not a large portion of the customer base being forced into it because the hardware picks for them.
    - cmorgan31 5y ago
      Did no one who bought an iPhone understand it has one store and a restrictive OS? I’m unsure of why you think the largest demographic isn’t already the ones who bought the phone with no side loading. I don’t give a shit that I can’t side load games on my console or my tv OS. The phone is the same and perhaps this is more of a generational difference.
      - zamadatix 5y ago
        I would wager a years salary if you went around to 100 random iPhone owners and asked them "did you buy the iPhone because it's a walled garden where you can't sideload" 90+ of the responses would be something along the lines of "what is sideloading". For those that answer "yes, actually" the option for them to be able to use the walled garden would still be there - allowing others the option does not take that away from those that are actually choosing the walled garden vs being required to use it after getting the phone for other reasons.
  - nexuist 5y ago
    Who is forcing you to leave the walled garden? All we are asking for is an option to install unapproved apps. You don't have to install them if you don't want to.
  - colinmhayes 5y ago
    No one would force you to use third party app stores.
    - jachee 5y ago
      You don’t think that those third parties would move their apps to be exclusive to their stores? The way it is now is very straightforward. If you want an app, you know where to get it. You know who’s vetted it. You know who’s handling your payment info. You (now) know what information about you is being gathered and disseminated. Can you imagine how terrible a world where every App thinks it needs its own store would be?
      - paulgb 5y ago
        This hasn’t really happened on Android or desktop open platforms. There are alternative app stores, but certainly not one for each app, and it would be a self-inflicted distribution wound for an app to go exclusive to a smaller app store. Having a uniform way to handle payments is a great feature, but it would happen naturally if payment terms were competitive with industry norms instead of extractive prices that require a lock on distribution.
tick_tock_tick 5y ago
All of those things can be had for cheaper from other vendors. Apple bans competition and overcharges for it on iOS.
- jachee 5y ago
  Can those things be had cheaper, while being guaranteed interoperable and directly integrated into a trusted hardware security enclave without any further integration headaches?
  - tick_tock_tick 5y ago
    Yes
Dma54rhs 5y ago
Microsoft pushed personal computers to masses and the productivity gains fie society are insane. You really think they don't deserve 50% from every excutable for their innovation and vision?!
- jachee 5y ago
  This isn't a particularly good analogy. Microsoft didn't build those computers. Microsoft didn't sell those computers. Microsoft didn't ship those computers. They merely licensed their OS to the manufacturers and/or end users. The X Box would be a better analogy, and MS does get a 30% cut there.
- gentleman11 5y ago
  Microsoft didn’t invent the operating system, they just captured the market share with network effects before somebody else did. If it wasn’t them, it would have been apple. If it wasn’t apple, somebody else would have raced into the void with dump trucks of Vic money. All things said, we could have done worse than early days Microsoft, although modern Microsoft is all about advertising and tracking
  - yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago
    > Microsoft didn’t invent the operating system Didn't they? QDOS was bought, but 9x and NT were mostly MS with a little bit of IBM AFAIK.
  - 908B64B197 5y ago
    > they just captured the market share with network effects before somebody else did Ever heard of CP/M? That was an improvement over having every manufacturer ship it's own (unmaintained) OS. Microsoft's genius was seeing the value in Software, not just in shipping physical goods. And people believed they were crazy at the time.
nexuist 5y ago
Why not allow other competitors to take over these software responsibilities if they want to? Why can't Google Play be on iOS too? Do you think Google wouldn't be able to effectively curate, distribute, and secure its own app store? Yes, Apple builds excellent hardware, and deserves to be rewarded for it. They are rewarded when I give them money for their products. They shouldn't have a say in what I do with the product after I receive it. Imagine buying a new Ford or Nissan and the dealership sets which highways you're allowed to drive on!
- 908B64B197 5y ago
  They could. BlackBerry, Nokia, they all failed to create an app ecosystem.
- bluedevil2k 5y ago
  BMW is trying to do this with their cars, every little feature is an odd on or subscription. I hope they fail a miserable death in this endeavor.
dang 5y ago
Can you please not post in the flamewar style to HN? We're trying for a different sort of conversation here. Note these guidelines: "Have curious conversation; don't cross-examine." "Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
bluedevil2k 5y ago
All great arguments for a fixed fee, not a massive % of sales (of sales...not profit). Apple has made BILLIONS of dollars running their App Store, I’d love to hear arguments why setting up an App Store with very minimal overheard deserves to reap billions of dollars of profit annually. None of the reasons you outline above would do it in my opinion.

by jachee 5y ago

paulgb 5y ago

I agree that “do nothing” is inaccurate (I think Ben later walked it back). But overall, I'm surprised how common the take is in the software industry that this is a fine state of things. How much of Apple's cut is because they run a good distribution network, vs. how much is because they are the only distribution channel? Surely we don't think it's a bad thing that desktop software went in the direction of being an open platform (which, it's worth noting, may not have gone in that direction without DOJ intervention). Why aren't we rooting for the same on mobile devices, which have become just as essential?

cmorgan31 5y ago
If I want a walled garden should I be allowed to have it? I understand individuals want to exercise control over things they own. I’m not interested in forcing brands to make their products open platform. I don’t want an open platform. I want a locked down and predictable platform. If you would rather argue that the distributor fee is too high I’d be inclined to agree.
- paulgb 5y ago
  Sure, I have no problem with there being a walled garden as long as users who want to have a way to opt out. Curated app stores do have value and I don't think they should disappear. I even think it is fine for niche platforms to exclusively have walled gardens. > I don’t want an open platform. Do you think the state of the world would be better if desktops were not open platforms? I'm genuinely curious because this is something I just can't relate to.
  - cmorgan31 5y ago
    You want walled gardens with check points? What is the point in building the wall if you can just leave or enter when you desire? I’m interested in a digital prison for my phone. I have no desire to entertain the concept of hypothetical arguments which ultimately boil down to - I also want some of this money, let us in.
- zamadatix 5y ago
  To expound on the other comments a bit more clearly: if it's the drive of a large portion of consumers that they only want to consume apps from the App Store because of the ecosystem that provides it should not require forcing everyone that has an iPhone to use the App Store, usage of the App Store and interest in apps working to get on it/pay dues should be a natural results of a large percentage of the customer base choosing to force apps to do such not a large portion of the customer base being forced into it because the hardware picks for them.
  - cmorgan31 5y ago
    Did no one who bought an iPhone understand it has one store and a restrictive OS? I’m unsure of why you think the largest demographic isn’t already the ones who bought the phone with no side loading. I don’t give a shit that I can’t side load games on my console or my tv OS. The phone is the same and perhaps this is more of a generational difference.
    - zamadatix 5y ago
      I would wager a years salary if you went around to 100 random iPhone owners and asked them "did you buy the iPhone because it's a walled garden where you can't sideload" 90+ of the responses would be something along the lines of "what is sideloading". For those that answer "yes, actually" the option for them to be able to use the walled garden would still be there - allowing others the option does not take that away from those that are actually choosing the walled garden vs being required to use it after getting the phone for other reasons.
- nexuist 5y ago
  Who is forcing you to leave the walled garden? All we are asking for is an option to install unapproved apps. You don't have to install them if you don't want to.
- colinmhayes 5y ago
  No one would force you to use third party app stores.
  - jachee 5y ago
    You don’t think that those third parties would move their apps to be exclusive to their stores? The way it is now is very straightforward. If you want an app, you know where to get it. You know who’s vetted it. You know who’s handling your payment info. You (now) know what information about you is being gathered and disseminated. Can you imagine how terrible a world where every App thinks it needs its own store would be?
    - paulgb 5y ago
      This hasn’t really happened on Android or desktop open platforms. There are alternative app stores, but certainly not one for each app, and it would be a self-inflicted distribution wound for an app to go exclusive to a smaller app store. Having a uniform way to handle payments is a great feature, but it would happen naturally if payment terms were competitive with industry norms instead of extractive prices that require a lock on distribution.

tick_tock_tick 5y ago

All of those things can be had for cheaper from other vendors. Apple bans competition and overcharges for it on iOS.

jachee 5y ago
Can those things be had cheaper, while being guaranteed interoperable and directly integrated into a trusted hardware security enclave without any further integration headaches?
- tick_tock_tick 5y ago
  Yes

Dma54rhs 5y ago

Microsoft pushed personal computers to masses and the productivity gains fie society are insane. You really think they don't deserve 50% from every excutable for their innovation and vision?!

jachee 5y ago
This isn't a particularly good analogy. Microsoft didn't build those computers. Microsoft didn't sell those computers. Microsoft didn't ship those computers. They merely licensed their OS to the manufacturers and/or end users. The X Box would be a better analogy, and MS does get a 30% cut there.
gentleman11 5y ago
Microsoft didn’t invent the operating system, they just captured the market share with network effects before somebody else did. If it wasn’t them, it would have been apple. If it wasn’t apple, somebody else would have raced into the void with dump trucks of Vic money. All things said, we could have done worse than early days Microsoft, although modern Microsoft is all about advertising and tracking
- yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago
  > Microsoft didn’t invent the operating system Didn't they? QDOS was bought, but 9x and NT were mostly MS with a little bit of IBM AFAIK.
- 908B64B197 5y ago
  > they just captured the market share with network effects before somebody else did Ever heard of CP/M? That was an improvement over having every manufacturer ship it's own (unmaintained) OS. Microsoft's genius was seeing the value in Software, not just in shipping physical goods. And people believed they were crazy at the time.

nexuist 5y ago

Why not allow other competitors to take over these software responsibilities if they want to? Why can't Google Play be on iOS too? Do you think Google wouldn't be able to effectively curate, distribute, and secure its own app store? Yes, Apple builds excellent hardware, and deserves to be rewarded for it. They are rewarded when I give them money for their products. They shouldn't have a say in what I do with the product after I receive it. Imagine buying a new Ford or Nissan and the dealership sets which highways you're allowed to drive on!

908B64B197 5y ago
They could. BlackBerry, Nokia, they all failed to create an app ecosystem.
bluedevil2k 5y ago
BMW is trying to do this with their cars, every little feature is an odd on or subscription. I hope they fail a miserable death in this endeavor.

dang 5y ago

Can you please not post in the flamewar style to HN? We're trying for a different sort of conversation here. Note these guidelines: "Have curious conversation; don't cross-examine." "Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

bluedevil2k 5y ago

All great arguments for a fixed fee, not a massive % of sales (of sales...not profit). Apple has made BILLIONS of dollars running their App Store, I’d love to hear arguments why setting up an App Store with very minimal overheard deserves to reap billions of dollars of profit annually. None of the reasons you outline above would do it in my opinion.