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They also appear to have a private security force (or to have branded a vehicle in a way that implies this, presumably because dystopian imagery seems like good

They also appear to have a private security force (or to have branded a vehicle in a way that implies this, presumably because dystopian imagery seems like good marketing) https://www.vice.com/en/article/7kv88q/citizen-los-angeles-car-private-security https://www.vice.com/en/article/7kv88q/citizen-los-angeles-c....

renewiltord 5y ago
Fuck yeah, this is awesome. I’ve always wanted local enforcement that is decoupled from the nonsense that the police do. Instead of SFPD, I could have my neighborhood served by high end local security that’s more responsive to local needs. We’ll just cut our spend if they’re douches instead of having some Dianne Feinstein sitting on Billionaire’s Row telling me that I need to accept some amount of robberies. Fuck yeah! I’m rooting for you, Frame. Democratize access to police.
- zucked 5y ago
  > Democratize access to police. Pay to play policing seems... the opposite of what you're asking for? Can you elaborate on this?
  - renewiltord 5y ago
    Sure². I believe that decentralization and federalism are critical to democracy, i.e. the ability for local groups of people to opt-out of constraints that the rest of society wants to put on them is a good thing, or to opt-in to local constraints that the rest of society decides against. I see one of America's strengths as her federalism, where groups of people do this successfully. Examples of this that I am hugely a fan of: * California's stance on non-competes * California's stance on not treating HIV-positive people differently from other people with STDs * San Francisco's stance on AI-based policing * Portola's (a neighbourhood in SF) stance on cars on sidewalks (otherwise illegal in SF) and the Dolores St median parking At each layer, the group of people collectively decide what makes sense for their society, and then put it into practice. In my ideal world, this is easy to do at each layer. My least ideal world has an all powerful Commander in (say) Washington DC who decides how people park in Portola. For most things this is fine, devolution works. For policing, my neighbourhood is subject to the judgment of some person in City Hall who lives in a very affluent neighbourhood. They take my tax money, my payroll taxes, my sales taxes and eat it all. The policing there is far superior to that in my neighbourhood because they use the second currency: power. I would prefer to just use the first currency: money¹. Every avenue where the first currency is prohibited for outcomes, the second currency takes over. As an immigrant to this country, I don't have the long relations that allow a normal person to have access to the second currency. I am also not Elon Musk or Ron Conway successful and so don't have that avenue to the second currency. But I do have the first currency. So I would prefer to use the first currency (and the goodwill and first currency of my neighbours) to provide services to the devolved local admin region of my choice. Policing is currently out of reach but I think it is possible eventually. It just needs some tech and organizational skillwork to get there. After all we already have the Patrol Special Police. It won't take too much work, unless they're too tightly enmeshed. ¹ To be clear, they can continue to eat my taxes. They're the predator, I'm the prey. So be it. I just want to also have some additional services to pay for. They can keep eating my flesh if they want. ² Unfortunately, heavy downvoting will trigger the flamebait filter and I won't be able to respond soon. I'm not complaining about the votes. It's okay to express displeasure that way. But if you happen to want a discussion, I'm afraid you're going to have to email me because I will likely be unable to respond to you soon. That's just how this platform works. I am saying what I am in good faith, definitely not trolling. Also, this comment will have to serve as response to everyone else too for the same reason. EDIT: Apologies to responders, but I don't want to receive a site ban because I also like to talk about tech. Email me if you want to continue the conversation, or if you want some other public place, go ahead and pick it and we can chat there. Besides, if people are saying "Stop saying what you're saying" then I should be polite and either stop saying it or accept further censure. I'm going to choose the former.
    - bhupy 5y ago
      It seems weird to conflate private policing with concepts like decentralization and federalism; which are pretty common in the world (see: Canada, Switzerland, Australia, the European Union, etc etc). They don't seem related. I actually agree with you that decentralization and federalism are critical to a functioning democracy, especially in a pluralistic/heterogenous republic, but there are so many questions I have on how pay-for-policing can reliably work. * What happens when a private police patroller is within proximity of a victim of violent crime that doesn't have the "first currency" and is not a paid subscriber? * Are the private police authorized to use force? If so, who anoints this power?
    - IgorPartola 5y ago
      Nothing prevents you from hiring a bodyguard or a security guard/guards. Have you tried that?
    - shkkmo 5y ago
      I am also a fan of devolution, but it has significant limitations when it comes to policing. Police need more than just local accountability. There is a fundemental need to trust that non-locals will be treated fairly alongside locals. A lack of fair treatment is already a problem for outsiders and out-groups in this country. Policing devolution can happen, but it has to be structured in a way to maintain accountability. The concern is that as private security moves into policing, this creates incentives to make our existing policing problems worse.
    - Balgair 5y ago
      Hey, how do you do the superscript 1 and 2?
      - colejohnson66 5y ago
        Unicode: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superscripts_and_Subscripts_(Unicode_block) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superscripts_and_Subscripts_(U...
- bhupy 5y ago
  In your mind, does a company like Frame have the authority to use force and/or arrest people? What happens if one resists arrest?
  - kangaroozach 5y ago
    Frame is not the company. Andrew Frame is the CEO of Citizen.
    - bhupy 5y ago
      You’re right, a typo. Question still stands.
- wearywanderer 5y ago
  > Democratize access to police. That's not what's happening here, for a few reasons. The first being that these are mercenaries (or "security contractors" if you want to use euphemisms), not police. Furthermore, nothing is being "democratized" here. They only work for you if you pay them. This has nothing to do with democracy.
  - hangtwenty 5y ago
    Agreed. I really detest how the word "democratize" got buzzed to death. It's become a zombie marketing term, and it wraps familiar ideology with vague associations of a rallying cry. Better phrasing maybe: it's a zombie marketing term that became a persistent and damaging bit of propaganda/ ideological meme.
    - IgorPartola 5y ago
      Democratized means cheap enough that an upper middle class person can afford it. Disrupted means fucked up. I also hate this language.
      - hangtwenty 5y ago
        Well put!
  - courtf 5y ago
    Even if we allow ourselves to imagine policing as a commodity in the most charitable way possible, what citizen did is still way out of bounds. Rabble rousing an anonymous mob to chase people down is something different from buying security on the open market. I'm against even the most charitable take on private policing because it requires an incredibly childish understanding of society to even take seriously, but these psychopaths are just forming random lynch mobs and should have their funding pulled.
sebmellen 5y ago
Jesus, that’s chilling. > “Subscription law enforcement service” [0] [0]: https://losangelesprofessionalsecurity.com/ https://losangelesprofessionalsecurity.com/
- MaxBarraclough 5y ago
  How are they not guilty of impersonating the police?
  - tgsovlerkhgsel 5y ago
    By never claiming they are police. If their vest said police or had a police badge, or if they claimed to be police, they'd be guilty of impersonating police. Dressing up in a generic tacticool uniform isn't impersonating police.
    - sebmellen 5y ago
      They have pictures which clearly show them detaining someone (at least for the camera). I think at some point this crosses a boundary, or at the very least it should https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5e55ad75dc26997531036450/1582848153327-ZBNENERCMYCTUE1LPT8V/ke17ZwdGBToddI8pDm48kLkXF2pIyv_F2eUT9F60jBl7gQa3H78H3Y0txjaiv_0fDoOvxcdMmMKkDsyUqMSsMWxHk725yiiHCCLfrh8O1z4YTzHvnKhyp6Da-NYroOW3ZGjoBKy3azqku80C789l0iyqMbMesKd95J-X4EagrgU9L3Sa3U8cogeb0tjXbfawd0urKshkc5MgdBeJmALQKw/LA+Professional+security+1.jpg?format=1500w https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5e55ad75dc2699....
      - colejohnson66 5y ago
        Citizen’s (heh) arrests are legal (in some jurisdictions and with some restrictions). I’d assume that’s what’s happening in that photo.
        sebmellen 5y ago
        I would hope to god one could make the legal argument that one only submitted to the arrest being under the impression they were police officers, and that they were thus impersonating police. Then sue them to hell and destroy the company. I don’t see how people can build companies like this or work such jobs. It really stretches the limits of human decency.

renewiltord 5y ago

Fuck yeah, this is awesome. I’ve always wanted local enforcement that is decoupled from the nonsense that the police do. Instead of SFPD, I could have my neighborhood served by high end local security that’s more responsive to local needs. We’ll just cut our spend if they’re douches instead of having some Dianne Feinstein sitting on Billionaire’s Row telling me that I need to accept some amount of robberies. Fuck yeah! I’m rooting for you, Frame. Democratize access to police.

zucked 5y ago
> Democratize access to police. Pay to play policing seems... the opposite of what you're asking for? Can you elaborate on this?
- renewiltord 5y ago
  Sure². I believe that decentralization and federalism are critical to democracy, i.e. the ability for local groups of people to opt-out of constraints that the rest of society wants to put on them is a good thing, or to opt-in to local constraints that the rest of society decides against. I see one of America's strengths as her federalism, where groups of people do this successfully. Examples of this that I am hugely a fan of: * California's stance on non-competes * California's stance on not treating HIV-positive people differently from other people with STDs * San Francisco's stance on AI-based policing * Portola's (a neighbourhood in SF) stance on cars on sidewalks (otherwise illegal in SF) and the Dolores St median parking At each layer, the group of people collectively decide what makes sense for their society, and then put it into practice. In my ideal world, this is easy to do at each layer. My least ideal world has an all powerful Commander in (say) Washington DC who decides how people park in Portola. For most things this is fine, devolution works. For policing, my neighbourhood is subject to the judgment of some person in City Hall who lives in a very affluent neighbourhood. They take my tax money, my payroll taxes, my sales taxes and eat it all. The policing there is far superior to that in my neighbourhood because they use the second currency: power. I would prefer to just use the first currency: money¹. Every avenue where the first currency is prohibited for outcomes, the second currency takes over. As an immigrant to this country, I don't have the long relations that allow a normal person to have access to the second currency. I am also not Elon Musk or Ron Conway successful and so don't have that avenue to the second currency. But I do have the first currency. So I would prefer to use the first currency (and the goodwill and first currency of my neighbours) to provide services to the devolved local admin region of my choice. Policing is currently out of reach but I think it is possible eventually. It just needs some tech and organizational skillwork to get there. After all we already have the Patrol Special Police. It won't take too much work, unless they're too tightly enmeshed. ¹ To be clear, they can continue to eat my taxes. They're the predator, I'm the prey. So be it. I just want to also have some additional services to pay for. They can keep eating my flesh if they want. ² Unfortunately, heavy downvoting will trigger the flamebait filter and I won't be able to respond soon. I'm not complaining about the votes. It's okay to express displeasure that way. But if you happen to want a discussion, I'm afraid you're going to have to email me because I will likely be unable to respond to you soon. That's just how this platform works. I am saying what I am in good faith, definitely not trolling. Also, this comment will have to serve as response to everyone else too for the same reason. EDIT: Apologies to responders, but I don't want to receive a site ban because I also like to talk about tech. Email me if you want to continue the conversation, or if you want some other public place, go ahead and pick it and we can chat there. Besides, if people are saying "Stop saying what you're saying" then I should be polite and either stop saying it or accept further censure. I'm going to choose the former.
  - bhupy 5y ago
    It seems weird to conflate private policing with concepts like decentralization and federalism; which are pretty common in the world (see: Canada, Switzerland, Australia, the European Union, etc etc). They don't seem related. I actually agree with you that decentralization and federalism are critical to a functioning democracy, especially in a pluralistic/heterogenous republic, but there are so many questions I have on how pay-for-policing can reliably work. * What happens when a private police patroller is within proximity of a victim of violent crime that doesn't have the "first currency" and is not a paid subscriber? * Are the private police authorized to use force? If so, who anoints this power?
  - IgorPartola 5y ago
    Nothing prevents you from hiring a bodyguard or a security guard/guards. Have you tried that?
  - shkkmo 5y ago
    I am also a fan of devolution, but it has significant limitations when it comes to policing. Police need more than just local accountability. There is a fundemental need to trust that non-locals will be treated fairly alongside locals. A lack of fair treatment is already a problem for outsiders and out-groups in this country. Policing devolution can happen, but it has to be structured in a way to maintain accountability. The concern is that as private security moves into policing, this creates incentives to make our existing policing problems worse.
  - Balgair 5y ago
    Hey, how do you do the superscript 1 and 2?
    - colejohnson66 5y ago
      Unicode: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superscripts_and_Subscripts_(Unicode_block) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superscripts_and_Subscripts_(U...
bhupy 5y ago
In your mind, does a company like Frame have the authority to use force and/or arrest people? What happens if one resists arrest?
- kangaroozach 5y ago
  Frame is not the company. Andrew Frame is the CEO of Citizen.
  - bhupy 5y ago
    You’re right, a typo. Question still stands.
wearywanderer 5y ago
> Democratize access to police. That's not what's happening here, for a few reasons. The first being that these are mercenaries (or "security contractors" if you want to use euphemisms), not police. Furthermore, nothing is being "democratized" here. They only work for you if you pay them. This has nothing to do with democracy.
- hangtwenty 5y ago
  Agreed. I really detest how the word "democratize" got buzzed to death. It's become a zombie marketing term, and it wraps familiar ideology with vague associations of a rallying cry. Better phrasing maybe: it's a zombie marketing term that became a persistent and damaging bit of propaganda/ ideological meme.
  - IgorPartola 5y ago
    Democratized means cheap enough that an upper middle class person can afford it. Disrupted means fucked up. I also hate this language.
    - hangtwenty 5y ago
      Well put!
- courtf 5y ago
  Even if we allow ourselves to imagine policing as a commodity in the most charitable way possible, what citizen did is still way out of bounds. Rabble rousing an anonymous mob to chase people down is something different from buying security on the open market. I'm against even the most charitable take on private policing because it requires an incredibly childish understanding of society to even take seriously, but these psychopaths are just forming random lynch mobs and should have their funding pulled.

sebmellen 5y ago

Jesus, that’s chilling. > “Subscription law enforcement service” [0] [0]: https://losangelesprofessionalsecurity.com/ https://losangelesprofessionalsecurity.com/

MaxBarraclough 5y ago
How are they not guilty of impersonating the police?
- tgsovlerkhgsel 5y ago
  By never claiming they are police. If their vest said police or had a police badge, or if they claimed to be police, they'd be guilty of impersonating police. Dressing up in a generic tacticool uniform isn't impersonating police.
  - sebmellen 5y ago
    They have pictures which clearly show them detaining someone (at least for the camera). I think at some point this crosses a boundary, or at the very least it should https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5e55ad75dc26997531036450/1582848153327-ZBNENERCMYCTUE1LPT8V/ke17ZwdGBToddI8pDm48kLkXF2pIyv_F2eUT9F60jBl7gQa3H78H3Y0txjaiv_0fDoOvxcdMmMKkDsyUqMSsMWxHk725yiiHCCLfrh8O1z4YTzHvnKhyp6Da-NYroOW3ZGjoBKy3azqku80C789l0iyqMbMesKd95J-X4EagrgU9L3Sa3U8cogeb0tjXbfawd0urKshkc5MgdBeJmALQKw/LA+Professional+security+1.jpg?format=1500w https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5e55ad75dc2699....
    - colejohnson66 5y ago
      Citizen’s (heh) arrests are legal (in some jurisdictions and with some restrictions). I’d assume that’s what’s happening in that photo.
      - sebmellen 5y ago
        I would hope to god one could make the legal argument that one only submitted to the arrest being under the impression they were police officers, and that they were thus impersonating police. Then sue them to hell and destroy the company. I don’t see how people can build companies like this or work such jobs. It really stretches the limits of human decency.