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I'm really happy Ford and others are starting to actually deliver on EV's. I do however think there will be a long list of issues as they scale the roll out, gi

by leesec 5y ago

I'm really happy Ford and others are starting to actually deliver on EV's. I do however think there will be a long list of issues as they scale the roll out, given the newness and complexity of this product. Here are some concerns I think people should be aware of: 1. No comprehensive supercharger network. This is a real big deal still. Using existing non-supercharging networks is not feasible for any long distance. You cannot do a roadtrip only charging 30~ mph. Thats 2 hours charging for every 1 hour driving. 2. Battery range for certain use cases. The base model is rated for 230 miles. If you've ever driven a Tesla on a highway you know you'll not get the full 230 at highspeeds. And so what happens when a truck is pulling a heavy load? You may end up literally getting half that range. This will be quite a shock for some users. 3. Software rollouts. Ford has been working on this but it is still not Solved. They've already bricked Mach-E's (1), and I expect there to be many more technical issues popping up. 4. No Autopilot. This is a big sell for many EV users. As far as I know Ford is no where close to having a viable competitor. Anyways, I'm sure these things will smooth out over the coming years and I wish them all the best with this amazing migration to electric vehicles. (1) https://www.theverge.com/2021/4/8/22373903/mustang-mach-e-deep-sleep-12v-battery-jump-start https://www.theverge.com/2021/4/8/22373903/mustang-mach-e-de...

loudmax 5y ago
I agree with your issues 1 and 2. Batteries do not yet match the energy density of petrol. There are plenty of cases where the shorter range isn't a problem, but buyers need to know have a clear understanding up front. I don't think issues 3 and 4 really need to have much to do with electric vehicles. Autopilot and electric are orthogonal properties. The only connection is that they're both pioneered by Tesla. Otherwise there's no particular reason you should expect one with the other. The same goes for over the air software updates.
- leesec 5y ago
  Autopilot sure but software updates are obviously an issue if they can brick your car.
  - CRConrad 5y ago
    Well, at least the exterior design has given the F-150 a fitting shape for that.
fdroidmstrrce 5y ago
I haven't kept up with Ford, but I know they have lane keeping and some sort of adaptive cruise control. That's Autopilot like anyone else has, it's just not marketed as autopilot. Anyway, I don't care about Effonefittys, I want an 8 passenger Autopilot vehicle that I can buy used.
- vel0city 5y ago
  Ford also has a hands free driving mode called Blue Cruise. It relies on highly accurate mapped roads as well as on-board sensors so it probably mostly works on just major highways. Still though, major highways are about the only time I'd really trust technology like this at the moment. https://media.ford.com/content/fordmedia/fna/us/en/news/2021/04/14/ford-mother-of-all-road-trips-bluecruise-hands-free-driving.html https://media.ford.com/content/fordmedia/fna/us/en/news/2021...
rootusrootus 5y ago
> No comprehensive supercharger network. This is a real big deal still. I agree that this is important, but it is 99% psychological. In the entire time I owned my Tesla, I used the supercharger a half dozen times. Most people with an EV that has 200+ miles of range will rarely use DC fast chargers.
- dripton 5y ago
  And I've used (checks file) 56 different superchargers in the last 4 years, some of them many times. It comes down to how many long road trips you make. Fast chargers are totally unnecessary for local-only driving if you have a slow charger at home, but critical for convenient road trips beyond your vehicle's range.
  - bhauer 5y ago
    Indeed. Also, GP comment might want to remember we're in a thread about the F-150, a truck that many consumers will want to use to get to job sites. Arguably, such a use case needs even more charging infrastructure than average electric vehicle use cases.
- thomascgalvin 5y ago
  I very, very rarely drive my car further than a hundred miles in a day; for my day-to-day work, a 200 mile range would be more than comfortable, and I'd be able to recharge to full overnight. But every once in a while we drive about 200 miles to visit the in-laws, and I would be super nervous about attempting that in an EV. At best we'd be close to empty by the time we arrived, I don't know the state of the charger system on the highways we use, and we'd be stuck using a low-amp charger at their house, which would take forever. I was 50/50 on buying an EV last year, but decided against it for this reason; I felt like we were still a couple of years away from EVs being practical for all of my use cases. I'm sure we'll get there soon, but right now they aren't a drop-in replacement for everyone's ICE.
  - patall 5y ago
    > I don't know the state of the charger system on the highways we use I totally understand your situation, but sorry, that had me laughing: Yeah sure, there is nothing to be done about that :)
pokstad 5y ago
Re autopilot: I want an electric truck, but there’s no way in hell I’m trusting my life to Bay Area tech. I want to save money on gas and be more eco friendly. My truck driving for me is not a want until the tech is perfected.
- basch 5y ago
  That leaves Korea and FCA? Japan has fallen behind in infotainment/software. Hyundai has a Santa Fe and the Ioniq coming out, so probably a combo of those two shortly after.
- ummonk 5y ago
  You shouldn't trust driver assistance features, Bay Area tech or not. They're there to assist you and decrease the burden of constant throttle / steering wheel management; you should still be constantly monitoring and ensuring the driver assistance tech is doing what it should.
- jsight 5y ago
  I don't "trust" autopilot any more than I "trust" basic cruise control. They are both nice to have, though.
jdhn 5y ago
>4. No Autopilot. This is a big sell for many EV users Is it really? I'm looking at an EV for my next car, and not once have I considered Autopilots availability as a musthave feature. Then again, most people who get excited about Autopilot seem to think that driving is a chore that should be removed, while I love driving.
- jsight 5y ago
  I love driving, but AP is also really useful on the highway and long stretches of road in general. Its a much bigger advantage than I expected, tbh. Ford has something similar, but it fails more unexpectedly and often. Although, Tesla AP still has major phantom braking issues... sigh.
- MaxDPS 5y ago
  I like driving, but I don’t like bumper to bumper traffic. That’s where autopilot comes in handy.
reedjosh 5y ago
regarding 2. Why are companies not putting out electric gas hybrids that use a tuned generator as a backup source of energy like the Chevy Volt did? (I suspect then the vehicle wouldn't qualify for subsidies) It's crazy to me, as it adds maybe 300 lbs to the vehicle and provides all the benefits of electric, but with the potential range of gas. I find electric vehicles as a technology highly appealing, but current offerings atrocious. I want a privacy (crazy I even have to say this) respecting electric vehicle with a backup gas charging generator. This truck would be ideal to _me_ if it met those two criterion, but as is it's a no go. I may just have to build my own someday. :sigh:
- blacksmith_tb 5y ago
  The BMW i3 has a gas range extender option[1] (though it's not exactly a pickup truck...) I personally went with a Toyota Prius Prime[2], which has been a solid vehicle. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_i3#Range_extender_option https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_i3#Range_extender_option 2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Prius_Plug-in_Hybrid#Drivetrain_2 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Prius_Plug-in_Hybrid#Dr...
- outworlder 5y ago
  The Volt was "hybrid done right". It was 90% an EV, it just had backup generation, which didn't even have to provide that much power. It can run at a constant (optimal) speed, with the variability absorbed by batteries. It doesn't take that much power to maintain speed in cruise, as opposed to accelerating. No complicated drive train either. The Prius drivetrain is an engineering marvel, but looks complicated to me. It seems to be reliable, which is incredible. Sure you need to carry the extra weight, but maintenance is (supposedly) much simpler. The I3 is an even better example. It's marketed with the 'range extender' as an option. Only issue is that it had a teeny tiny fuel tank that only added a pitiful range(I suspect some incentives were in play), but it demonstrates the concept. Maybe this could even be optional.
  - carlivar 5y ago
    Completely agree about the Volt. PHEVs are ideal, and best for the environment. Who cares if you have to use gas a couple times a month for longer ranges if you don't need to mine so much lithium and cobalt for the battery? Cutting gas usage by 80% should be considered essentially equivalent to 100%. And the lower electric range of PHEVs is likely offset by lack of range anxiety and potentially greater adoption.
duffyjp 5y ago
We owned a Ford plug-in hybrid. Amazing power, every creature comfort imaginable, great price-- what could go wrong? Sort answer: everything. It was an absolute nightmare. First and last Ford I'll ever buy.
- gautamcgoel 5y ago
  Can you elaborate? What went wrong?
  - duffyjp 5y ago
    I could rant for ages, but already got downvoted so I'll keep it short. It was the only car I've ever owned to leave me stranded. It did so at least half a dozen times. The 12V battery (which we replaced) would be drained flat by the janky electronics of the car. It would be 100% fine when you park, and the dead when you're done shopping. Eventually I bought a battery charger to top it off every weekend. We had recall after recall to deal with. I still get notices in the mail and we sold that car two years ago. None of the recalls dealt with any of our problems which were common when googling. Selling that car for 25% of it's purchase price after 3 years was the final insult, but nobody wanted it and I can't blame them. For anyone curious, it was a 2013 Ford C-Max Energi.
    - mikeg8 5y ago
      While it's unfortunate you had so many issues, I think some of them can be chalked up to the risk of being such an early adopter. EVs in 2013 vs 2021 would seem to be quite different machines.
- jameshart 5y ago
  By way of counterpoint: leased a C-Max Energi plug-in hybrid from Ford for 3 years; never needed any work doing to it. Was a disappointment when Ford announced they were walking away from the car market for trucks and coupes only.
Unklejoe 5y ago
Autopilot is commonly lumped together with electric cars, but they’re really two completely unrelated things. It just so happens that one of the most popular autopilot implementations is on Tesla, but it could have just as well been implemented on an ICE car.
- leesec 5y ago
  Agree in theory but no one has built in a similar sensor suite to Tesla or added a powerful enough computer chip in their cars. This roots back to Tesla treating the whole car like a unified piece of software and having much better programmatic control over it. I only mentioned autopilot because the leading EV does have it as an included feature and so when weighing options people might question why it's not there on other models.
  - vel0city 5y ago
    It's not an included feature on the Teslas, it's a $10k option.
    - judge2020 5y ago
      You’re not wrong about ‘full self driving’, but “Autopilot” - which is just lane steering and adaptive cruise - is standard on every car you can get from Tesla’s site (you might still be able to get a model 3 without it by calling sales, but I haven’t heard of that working as of recent).
    - bhauer 5y ago
      Several pieces of the Autopilot software suite are included at no charge. The "FSD Capability" (pre-payment for a future delivery of full self-driving) is the $10K option you are thinking of. Buyers of the FSD Capability package get some additional beta features such as "Navigate on Autopilot" which will do lane changes on freeways, but is otherwise significantly less than actual full self-driving as it would be understood by a layperson.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
Rebelgecko 5y ago
At least for my use cases, I think Ford actually has an edge over Autopilot. Any car with adaptive cruise control and autosteering is gonna behave identically to a Tesla with autopilot for 99% of the time behind the wheel. Ford doesn't do lane changes or summoning, but from what I've seen both of those features have some jank with Tesla and I wouldn't use them. The big pro of Ford's system is that on some highways/freeways the cruise control is actually hands free. IIRC Teslas have torque sensors in the steering wheel to make sure that your hands don't wander.
- leesec 5y ago
  "Any car with adaptive cruise control and autosteering is gonna behave identically to a Tesla with autopilot for 99% of the time behind the wheel." This isn't even close to true. Most LKAS and ADAS systems will only last a few seconds before they require human intervention. It is not at all the same experience.
  - ummonk 5y ago
    Autosteering / lane-centering (which is increasingly standard in driver assistance technology, including bluecruise which will be available on this truck) is not the same as lane-keep assist.
  - Rebelgecko 5y ago
    I'm not sure about most systems, but whatever Subaru puts in their cars works pretty well in my experience. It has a little trouble on windy mountain roads when the shoulder isn't well marked (it doesn't drive off a cliff or anything, but the autosteer disengages), but on the freeway I can usually go 10+ minutes without any manual interaction.
cbm-vic-20 5y ago
> No comprehensive supercharger network. This is a real big deal still. I agree- this is really going to be a big deal, especially with how large the F-150 EV battery is (150kWh). For comparison, the Chevrolet Bolt hatchback has a 66KWh battery with a similar range as the F-150, which makes sense, because the Bolt is much lighter and aerodynamic. The vast majority of public charging stations in the US ("Level 2") max out at under 10kW; these are great for smaller cars used for commuting to-and-from the office or local shops or whatever. This isn't so bad for the Bolt, but the F-150 will recharge (from a range perspective) much more slowly. There are very few Level 3 "fast" chargers around. These typically charge at 50kW until the battery is at 80% capacity, then slow down to 10kW or so. Public chargers often charge per minute ($.30 or so), so you get the best bang for the buck to get off the charger once you hit 80%. So, let's say your F-150 is down to 20% capacity, and you need to charge up to 80%. 60% of that 150kWh is battery is 90kWh- that will take nearly two hours ($36) on that fast charger.
- notJim 5y ago
  This info seems a little out of date at this point. This is a map of 120 kW+ Electrify America charging stations from PlugShare: https://i.imgur.com/1dcM6UX.png https://i.imgur.com/1dcM6UX.png. I agree we need more, but I don't know if it feels right to say there are "very few", when they line most of the major interstates. > These typically charge at 50kW until the battery is at 80% capacity, then slow down to 10kW or so. I'm not sure where you're getting this number, but according to this data [1] about the Mach-E, it charges at 150 kW until about 10%, then 100 kW until 35%, then 70 kW until 80%. This is much faster than what you are saying. They have a chart showing that depending on your starting SoC, you can get an average of up to 90 kW. If you start at a reasonable 10-15% state of charge, your average charge rate up to 80% will be 80 kW, not 50kW. > So, let's say your F-150 is down to 20% capacity, and you need to charge up to 80%. 60% of that 150kWh is battery is 90kWh- that will take nearly two hours ($36) on that fast charger. The F-150 has a larger battery than the Mach-E, but assuming the rates stay the same, it would take a bit over an hour to charge this much, not two hours. The pricing varies on Electrify America, but looking at a few stations here [2], as long as you have a membership, it looks like this would cost somewhere from $10-30. Some stations charge by the minute, and others by the kWh. [1]: https://insideevs.com/news/492727/ford-mustang-mache-fast-charging-analysis/ https://insideevs.com/news/492727/ford-mustang-mache-fast-ch... [2]: https://www.electrifyamerica.com/pricing/ https://www.electrifyamerica.com/pricing/
notJim 5y ago
For the first one, are you considering the Electrify America network? I follow a guy on YouTube who takes road trips using the EA network. The issues he has are not so much that the stations don't exist, but that the charging is slower than optimal and buggy due to bad software. He's still able to roadtrip though, just with more hassle.
sunflowerfly 5y ago
Why not have every dealer install a couple of fast chargers? They could build out a nation-wide fast charge network in a month.
- leesec 5y ago
  Sure but it's not just about quantity. They need to be along the highways to be useful for roadtrips. And no one else even has the tech for supercharging at the moment, it's 72kwh supercharges vs 50kwh (rare) ( as far as I know ).
  - clouddrover 5y ago
    Various CCS charging networks have 350 kW chargers. For example, Ionity does (https://ionity.eu/ https://ionity.eu/) and Electrify America does (https://www.electrifyamerica.com/ https://www.electrifyamerica.com/). Repsol has been installing 400 kW chargers (https://insideevs.com/news/375020/repsol-most-powerful-charging-station-europe/ https://insideevs.com/news/375020/repsol-most-powerful-charg...).
- outworlder 5y ago
  Nissan did this and it sucks. Because dealers have to sell their vehicles too, so guess which vehicles get plugged in those stations? They are almost always busy. Plus dealerships have business hours. I had a bad time once with an earlier Leaf generation trying to charge at night, in the cold. TWO quick chargers just a few miles away, both inaccessible.
yumraj 5y ago
> software rollout Nope, don’t want automatic over the air software update. I want it in the field when others have tried it, found issues and then I get it. > autopilot Again, don’t want a half baked marketing-speak technology. Driver assist with sensor driven safety features are all I want. Don’t want extremely intrusive analytics and camera monitoring sure where after any accident the car company CEO would be testing how it was my fault. Supercharger network is the only thing that will ever make me want to get a Tesla, hopefully other networks will soon be sufficient. Yes, Ford dealerships and in fact all dealerships can be shady, but for other cars I generally don’t have to deal with them once the warranty is over. With Tesla I’ll have to deal with the company for the life of my car.
outworlder 5y ago
> No comprehensive supercharger network. Agreed. I've been driving a Leaf since 2015 (two different generations by now) and the main reason that makes road trips unpalatable is NOT range. Not at all. Charging more often? Sure, whatever. Unless it's a business trip or a trip across the country it's fine. I've discovered some stuff I'd probably would never have otherwise, by routing via chargers in small towns. No, the problem is how sparse some quickchargers are, and the fact that many don't even work - and the best you can do is check comments to see if people have complained about them recently. Some of them (specially Nissan owned!) are located in places that _close at night_. That's not acceptable, we can find 24/7 gas stations almost everywhere. However, that only accounts for 0.1% of my trips. I've optimized for the most common use-case (city driving) and don't regret that one bit. > If you've ever driven a Tesla on a highway you know you'll not get the full 230 at highspeeds. Yeap. Same way you won't get good mileage on any car if you do that. Thankfully liquid fuels have a ridiculous amount of energy, so we can afford to waste 70% as heat plus drag and the only real consequence is the wallet (and filling up more often). US highway speeds are crazy and it is indeed shocking when you see it the first time. It would also be quite shocking on ICE cars too, but they don't have accurate fuel gages, let alone accurate range estimates. At least most don't. > I wish them all the best with this amazing migration to electric vehicles. Me too!
- raspasov 5y ago
  >>> US highway speeds are crazy Crazy as in high or low? I-5 between San Francisco and LA is about ~70mph limit. That's ~113km/h. A lot of highways in Europe are often at 130km/h sometimes going up to 140km/h limit. P.S. And if you think those limits are even remotely observed, try a road trip in Italy or Bulgaria :P
  - vinay427 5y ago
    I'm not sure they were drawing a specific comparison between the US and some other country, and there's quite a bit more diversity among European countries. There are at least many in which speed limits are stringently enforced using speed cameras or other more "ruthless" methods, accompanied with even heftier penalties than in most of the US. Meanwhile, I don't know if there are any states in which minor speeding is systematically enforced.
mullingitover 5y ago
> No Autopilot. This is a big sell for many EV users. As far as I know Ford is no where close to having a viable competitor. Autopilot (as in ADAS Level 3) is and always will be vaporware on existing Teslas. Meanwhile my 2016 Civic has the same type of ADAS Level 2 driver assist. It's not quite as fancy as Tesla's version but it's 90% of what I need. I think for 90% of buyers, anything that does ADAS level 2 is fine.
acwan93 5y ago
>1. No comprehensive supercharger network. This is a real big deal still. Yes. I considered CarPlay a must-have feature, but no EVs out there matched the Supercharger network, which led to a Tesla purchase. >4. No Autopilot. Tesla is definitely overselling this. The only real time I've used Autopilot for an extended period of time was driving I-5 from SF to/from LA, and other ICE cars accomplish this too.
syshum 5y ago
>> No Autopilot. This is a big sell for many EV users. Ford is targeting Truck Buyers, not "EV Users", and I can assure you Ford knows Truck Buyers, and i can also Assure you we do not care or even want Autopilot. We love to drive our trucks. >>No comprehensive supercharger network. I fully expect Ford to have this solved by the time the first Truck rolls off the line, I could be wrong but Ford has a ton of partnerships and pull. Hell even if the only chargers where at every dealership that would likely rival Telsa's network out of the box. However I fully expect deals to be made likely in concert with other Manufactures over the next 12 mos so I think this will end up being a non-issue >>Software rollouts. Ford has been working on this but it is still not Solved. I still not sure how I feel about this "feature", one of the reason I dislike Tesla is their belief they should be allowed to modify the car I supposedly bought from them anytime they want over the air. Treating the car like it was an Apple iPhone (which I also do not own) Ford has a careful balancing act here. Ford owners want to OWN their truck, not rent it from Ford
fma 5y ago
I don't think many people will be driving an EV Ford F-150 cross country. Minivan...yes. SUV yes. Work truck, not likely. If people have the occasional need to drive cross country, just rent a gas vehicle till the infrastructure is there. Till then it's just fear mongering causes a slower adoption of EV, which means a slower rollout of a national network.
- Kerrick 5y ago
  One of the things I need a truck for is to tow a trailer with cows inside to (and back from) a facility that can extract eggs, implant embryos, etc. Unfortunately, that route doesn't follow any interstate highways and is about 180 miles each way. I'd absolutely LOVE to tow them with an electric truck and eliminate emissions from the picture. I've been eagerly awaiting something like the Cybertruck/Lightning, but until they get MUCH more mileage or hot-swap batteries I just can't make the switch. There is one fast-charge station in the middle, but none near the destination--and even if there was, I can't add charging stops with a trailered cow. I agree that overselling the importance of uncommon use cases is a hindrance to EV adoption in general, but this is a pickup truck. The purpose of a pickup truck is to handle the uncommon use cases. It's fair to criticize this specific EV for not being good at the things that you must have a pickup truck to do.
  - fma 5y ago
    Then...don't get an EV truck? You're not the target audience. Might be a 360 round trip capability. Someone else will need to take their cows 400 miles round trip...then 420? At what point is good enough is good enough. Your criticism will likely prevent someone else where it fits their use case from buying it just because of a "what if" scenario and prevents the overall cause of eliminating emissions.
    - fma 5y ago
      I reread my comment and I sound like an ass and I'm sorry. I'm just frustrated that I think we'll have a long road ahead in reaching mass adoption if people keep hearing these one off scenarios and think of the vehicles on a negative light when families can purchase 1 EV and retain 1 ICE for now and use the ICE for long trips - or, rent for long trips but my friends keep holding out for the "perfect" EV.

by leesec 5y ago

loudmax 5y ago

I agree with your issues 1 and 2. Batteries do not yet match the energy density of petrol. There are plenty of cases where the shorter range isn't a problem, but buyers need to know have a clear understanding up front. I don't think issues 3 and 4 really need to have much to do with electric vehicles. Autopilot and electric are orthogonal properties. The only connection is that they're both pioneered by Tesla. Otherwise there's no particular reason you should expect one with the other. The same goes for over the air software updates.

leesec 5y ago
Autopilot sure but software updates are obviously an issue if they can brick your car.
- CRConrad 5y ago
  Well, at least the exterior design has given the F-150 a fitting shape for that.

fdroidmstrrce 5y ago

I haven't kept up with Ford, but I know they have lane keeping and some sort of adaptive cruise control. That's Autopilot like anyone else has, it's just not marketed as autopilot. Anyway, I don't care about Effonefittys, I want an 8 passenger Autopilot vehicle that I can buy used.

vel0city 5y ago
Ford also has a hands free driving mode called Blue Cruise. It relies on highly accurate mapped roads as well as on-board sensors so it probably mostly works on just major highways. Still though, major highways are about the only time I'd really trust technology like this at the moment. https://media.ford.com/content/fordmedia/fna/us/en/news/2021/04/14/ford-mother-of-all-road-trips-bluecruise-hands-free-driving.html https://media.ford.com/content/fordmedia/fna/us/en/news/2021...

rootusrootus 5y ago

> No comprehensive supercharger network. This is a real big deal still. I agree that this is important, but it is 99% psychological. In the entire time I owned my Tesla, I used the supercharger a half dozen times. Most people with an EV that has 200+ miles of range will rarely use DC fast chargers.

dripton 5y ago
And I've used (checks file) 56 different superchargers in the last 4 years, some of them many times. It comes down to how many long road trips you make. Fast chargers are totally unnecessary for local-only driving if you have a slow charger at home, but critical for convenient road trips beyond your vehicle's range.
- bhauer 5y ago
  Indeed. Also, GP comment might want to remember we're in a thread about the F-150, a truck that many consumers will want to use to get to job sites. Arguably, such a use case needs even more charging infrastructure than average electric vehicle use cases.
thomascgalvin 5y ago
I very, very rarely drive my car further than a hundred miles in a day; for my day-to-day work, a 200 mile range would be more than comfortable, and I'd be able to recharge to full overnight. But every once in a while we drive about 200 miles to visit the in-laws, and I would be super nervous about attempting that in an EV. At best we'd be close to empty by the time we arrived, I don't know the state of the charger system on the highways we use, and we'd be stuck using a low-amp charger at their house, which would take forever. I was 50/50 on buying an EV last year, but decided against it for this reason; I felt like we were still a couple of years away from EVs being practical for all of my use cases. I'm sure we'll get there soon, but right now they aren't a drop-in replacement for everyone's ICE.
- patall 5y ago
  > I don't know the state of the charger system on the highways we use I totally understand your situation, but sorry, that had me laughing: Yeah sure, there is nothing to be done about that :)

pokstad 5y ago

Re autopilot: I want an electric truck, but there’s no way in hell I’m trusting my life to Bay Area tech. I want to save money on gas and be more eco friendly. My truck driving for me is not a want until the tech is perfected.

basch 5y ago
That leaves Korea and FCA? Japan has fallen behind in infotainment/software. Hyundai has a Santa Fe and the Ioniq coming out, so probably a combo of those two shortly after.
ummonk 5y ago
You shouldn't trust driver assistance features, Bay Area tech or not. They're there to assist you and decrease the burden of constant throttle / steering wheel management; you should still be constantly monitoring and ensuring the driver assistance tech is doing what it should.
jsight 5y ago
I don't "trust" autopilot any more than I "trust" basic cruise control. They are both nice to have, though.

jdhn 5y ago

>4. No Autopilot. This is a big sell for many EV users Is it really? I'm looking at an EV for my next car, and not once have I considered Autopilots availability as a musthave feature. Then again, most people who get excited about Autopilot seem to think that driving is a chore that should be removed, while I love driving.

jsight 5y ago
I love driving, but AP is also really useful on the highway and long stretches of road in general. Its a much bigger advantage than I expected, tbh. Ford has something similar, but it fails more unexpectedly and often. Although, Tesla AP still has major phantom braking issues... sigh.
MaxDPS 5y ago
I like driving, but I don’t like bumper to bumper traffic. That’s where autopilot comes in handy.

reedjosh 5y ago

regarding 2. Why are companies not putting out electric gas hybrids that use a tuned generator as a backup source of energy like the Chevy Volt did? (I suspect then the vehicle wouldn't qualify for subsidies) It's crazy to me, as it adds maybe 300 lbs to the vehicle and provides all the benefits of electric, but with the potential range of gas. I find electric vehicles as a technology highly appealing, but current offerings atrocious. I want a privacy (crazy I even have to say this) respecting electric vehicle with a backup gas charging generator. This truck would be ideal to _me_ if it met those two criterion, but as is it's a no go. I may just have to build my own someday. :sigh:

blacksmith_tb 5y ago
The BMW i3 has a gas range extender option[1] (though it's not exactly a pickup truck...) I personally went with a Toyota Prius Prime[2], which has been a solid vehicle. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_i3#Range_extender_option https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_i3#Range_extender_option 2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Prius_Plug-in_Hybrid#Drivetrain_2 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Prius_Plug-in_Hybrid#Dr...
outworlder 5y ago
The Volt was "hybrid done right". It was 90% an EV, it just had backup generation, which didn't even have to provide that much power. It can run at a constant (optimal) speed, with the variability absorbed by batteries. It doesn't take that much power to maintain speed in cruise, as opposed to accelerating. No complicated drive train either. The Prius drivetrain is an engineering marvel, but looks complicated to me. It seems to be reliable, which is incredible. Sure you need to carry the extra weight, but maintenance is (supposedly) much simpler. The I3 is an even better example. It's marketed with the 'range extender' as an option. Only issue is that it had a teeny tiny fuel tank that only added a pitiful range(I suspect some incentives were in play), but it demonstrates the concept. Maybe this could even be optional.
- carlivar 5y ago
  Completely agree about the Volt. PHEVs are ideal, and best for the environment. Who cares if you have to use gas a couple times a month for longer ranges if you don't need to mine so much lithium and cobalt for the battery? Cutting gas usage by 80% should be considered essentially equivalent to 100%. And the lower electric range of PHEVs is likely offset by lack of range anxiety and potentially greater adoption.

duffyjp 5y ago

We owned a Ford plug-in hybrid. Amazing power, every creature comfort imaginable, great price-- what could go wrong? Sort answer: everything. It was an absolute nightmare. First and last Ford I'll ever buy.

gautamcgoel 5y ago
Can you elaborate? What went wrong?
- duffyjp 5y ago
  I could rant for ages, but already got downvoted so I'll keep it short. It was the only car I've ever owned to leave me stranded. It did so at least half a dozen times. The 12V battery (which we replaced) would be drained flat by the janky electronics of the car. It would be 100% fine when you park, and the dead when you're done shopping. Eventually I bought a battery charger to top it off every weekend. We had recall after recall to deal with. I still get notices in the mail and we sold that car two years ago. None of the recalls dealt with any of our problems which were common when googling. Selling that car for 25% of it's purchase price after 3 years was the final insult, but nobody wanted it and I can't blame them. For anyone curious, it was a 2013 Ford C-Max Energi.
  - mikeg8 5y ago
    While it's unfortunate you had so many issues, I think some of them can be chalked up to the risk of being such an early adopter. EVs in 2013 vs 2021 would seem to be quite different machines.
jameshart 5y ago
By way of counterpoint: leased a C-Max Energi plug-in hybrid from Ford for 3 years; never needed any work doing to it. Was a disappointment when Ford announced they were walking away from the car market for trucks and coupes only.

Unklejoe 5y ago

Autopilot is commonly lumped together with electric cars, but they’re really two completely unrelated things. It just so happens that one of the most popular autopilot implementations is on Tesla, but it could have just as well been implemented on an ICE car.

leesec 5y ago
Agree in theory but no one has built in a similar sensor suite to Tesla or added a powerful enough computer chip in their cars. This roots back to Tesla treating the whole car like a unified piece of software and having much better programmatic control over it. I only mentioned autopilot because the leading EV does have it as an included feature and so when weighing options people might question why it's not there on other models.
- vel0city 5y ago
  It's not an included feature on the Teslas, it's a $10k option.
  - judge2020 5y ago
    You’re not wrong about ‘full self driving’, but “Autopilot” - which is just lane steering and adaptive cruise - is standard on every car you can get from Tesla’s site (you might still be able to get a model 3 without it by calling sales, but I haven’t heard of that working as of recent).
  - bhauer 5y ago
    Several pieces of the Autopilot software suite are included at no charge. The "FSD Capability" (pre-payment for a future delivery of full self-driving) is the $10K option you are thinking of. Buyers of the FSD Capability package get some additional beta features such as "Navigate on Autopilot" which will do lane changes on freeways, but is otherwise significantly less than actual full self-driving as it would be understood by a layperson.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]

Rebelgecko 5y ago

At least for my use cases, I think Ford actually has an edge over Autopilot. Any car with adaptive cruise control and autosteering is gonna behave identically to a Tesla with autopilot for 99% of the time behind the wheel. Ford doesn't do lane changes or summoning, but from what I've seen both of those features have some jank with Tesla and I wouldn't use them. The big pro of Ford's system is that on some highways/freeways the cruise control is actually hands free. IIRC Teslas have torque sensors in the steering wheel to make sure that your hands don't wander.

leesec 5y ago
"Any car with adaptive cruise control and autosteering is gonna behave identically to a Tesla with autopilot for 99% of the time behind the wheel." This isn't even close to true. Most LKAS and ADAS systems will only last a few seconds before they require human intervention. It is not at all the same experience.
- ummonk 5y ago
  Autosteering / lane-centering (which is increasingly standard in driver assistance technology, including bluecruise which will be available on this truck) is not the same as lane-keep assist.
- Rebelgecko 5y ago
  I'm not sure about most systems, but whatever Subaru puts in their cars works pretty well in my experience. It has a little trouble on windy mountain roads when the shoulder isn't well marked (it doesn't drive off a cliff or anything, but the autosteer disengages), but on the freeway I can usually go 10+ minutes without any manual interaction.

cbm-vic-20 5y ago

> No comprehensive supercharger network. This is a real big deal still. I agree- this is really going to be a big deal, especially with how large the F-150 EV battery is (150kWh). For comparison, the Chevrolet Bolt hatchback has a 66KWh battery with a similar range as the F-150, which makes sense, because the Bolt is much lighter and aerodynamic. The vast majority of public charging stations in the US ("Level 2") max out at under 10kW; these are great for smaller cars used for commuting to-and-from the office or local shops or whatever. This isn't so bad for the Bolt, but the F-150 will recharge (from a range perspective) much more slowly. There are very few Level 3 "fast" chargers around. These typically charge at 50kW until the battery is at 80% capacity, then slow down to 10kW or so. Public chargers often charge per minute ($.30 or so), so you get the best bang for the buck to get off the charger once you hit 80%. So, let's say your F-150 is down to 20% capacity, and you need to charge up to 80%. 60% of that 150kWh is battery is 90kWh- that will take nearly two hours ($36) on that fast charger.

notJim 5y ago
This info seems a little out of date at this point. This is a map of 120 kW+ Electrify America charging stations from PlugShare: https://i.imgur.com/1dcM6UX.png https://i.imgur.com/1dcM6UX.png. I agree we need more, but I don't know if it feels right to say there are "very few", when they line most of the major interstates. > These typically charge at 50kW until the battery is at 80% capacity, then slow down to 10kW or so. I'm not sure where you're getting this number, but according to this data [1] about the Mach-E, it charges at 150 kW until about 10%, then 100 kW until 35%, then 70 kW until 80%. This is much faster than what you are saying. They have a chart showing that depending on your starting SoC, you can get an average of up to 90 kW. If you start at a reasonable 10-15% state of charge, your average charge rate up to 80% will be 80 kW, not 50kW. > So, let's say your F-150 is down to 20% capacity, and you need to charge up to 80%. 60% of that 150kWh is battery is 90kWh- that will take nearly two hours ($36) on that fast charger. The F-150 has a larger battery than the Mach-E, but assuming the rates stay the same, it would take a bit over an hour to charge this much, not two hours. The pricing varies on Electrify America, but looking at a few stations here [2], as long as you have a membership, it looks like this would cost somewhere from $10-30. Some stations charge by the minute, and others by the kWh. [1]: https://insideevs.com/news/492727/ford-mustang-mache-fast-charging-analysis/ https://insideevs.com/news/492727/ford-mustang-mache-fast-ch... [2]: https://www.electrifyamerica.com/pricing/ https://www.electrifyamerica.com/pricing/

notJim 5y ago

For the first one, are you considering the Electrify America network? I follow a guy on YouTube who takes road trips using the EA network. The issues he has are not so much that the stations don't exist, but that the charging is slower than optimal and buggy due to bad software. He's still able to roadtrip though, just with more hassle.

sunflowerfly 5y ago

Why not have every dealer install a couple of fast chargers? They could build out a nation-wide fast charge network in a month.

leesec 5y ago
Sure but it's not just about quantity. They need to be along the highways to be useful for roadtrips. And no one else even has the tech for supercharging at the moment, it's 72kwh supercharges vs 50kwh (rare) ( as far as I know ).
- clouddrover 5y ago
  Various CCS charging networks have 350 kW chargers. For example, Ionity does (https://ionity.eu/ https://ionity.eu/) and Electrify America does (https://www.electrifyamerica.com/ https://www.electrifyamerica.com/). Repsol has been installing 400 kW chargers (https://insideevs.com/news/375020/repsol-most-powerful-charging-station-europe/ https://insideevs.com/news/375020/repsol-most-powerful-charg...).
outworlder 5y ago
Nissan did this and it sucks. Because dealers have to sell their vehicles too, so guess which vehicles get plugged in those stations? They are almost always busy. Plus dealerships have business hours. I had a bad time once with an earlier Leaf generation trying to charge at night, in the cold. TWO quick chargers just a few miles away, both inaccessible.

yumraj 5y ago

> software rollout Nope, don’t want automatic over the air software update. I want it in the field when others have tried it, found issues and then I get it. > autopilot Again, don’t want a half baked marketing-speak technology. Driver assist with sensor driven safety features are all I want. Don’t want extremely intrusive analytics and camera monitoring sure where after any accident the car company CEO would be testing how it was my fault. Supercharger network is the only thing that will ever make me want to get a Tesla, hopefully other networks will soon be sufficient. Yes, Ford dealerships and in fact all dealerships can be shady, but for other cars I generally don’t have to deal with them once the warranty is over. With Tesla I’ll have to deal with the company for the life of my car.

outworlder 5y ago

> No comprehensive supercharger network. Agreed. I've been driving a Leaf since 2015 (two different generations by now) and the main reason that makes road trips unpalatable is NOT range. Not at all. Charging more often? Sure, whatever. Unless it's a business trip or a trip across the country it's fine. I've discovered some stuff I'd probably would never have otherwise, by routing via chargers in small towns. No, the problem is how sparse some quickchargers are, and the fact that many don't even work - and the best you can do is check comments to see if people have complained about them recently. Some of them (specially Nissan owned!) are located in places that _close at night_. That's not acceptable, we can find 24/7 gas stations almost everywhere. However, that only accounts for 0.1% of my trips. I've optimized for the most common use-case (city driving) and don't regret that one bit. > If you've ever driven a Tesla on a highway you know you'll not get the full 230 at highspeeds. Yeap. Same way you won't get good mileage on any car if you do that. Thankfully liquid fuels have a ridiculous amount of energy, so we can afford to waste 70% as heat plus drag and the only real consequence is the wallet (and filling up more often). US highway speeds are crazy and it is indeed shocking when you see it the first time. It would also be quite shocking on ICE cars too, but they don't have accurate fuel gages, let alone accurate range estimates. At least most don't. > I wish them all the best with this amazing migration to electric vehicles. Me too!

raspasov 5y ago
>>> US highway speeds are crazy Crazy as in high or low? I-5 between San Francisco and LA is about ~70mph limit. That's ~113km/h. A lot of highways in Europe are often at 130km/h sometimes going up to 140km/h limit. P.S. And if you think those limits are even remotely observed, try a road trip in Italy or Bulgaria :P
- vinay427 5y ago
  I'm not sure they were drawing a specific comparison between the US and some other country, and there's quite a bit more diversity among European countries. There are at least many in which speed limits are stringently enforced using speed cameras or other more "ruthless" methods, accompanied with even heftier penalties than in most of the US. Meanwhile, I don't know if there are any states in which minor speeding is systematically enforced.

mullingitover 5y ago

> No Autopilot. This is a big sell for many EV users. As far as I know Ford is no where close to having a viable competitor. Autopilot (as in ADAS Level 3) is and always will be vaporware on existing Teslas. Meanwhile my 2016 Civic has the same type of ADAS Level 2 driver assist. It's not quite as fancy as Tesla's version but it's 90% of what I need. I think for 90% of buyers, anything that does ADAS level 2 is fine.

acwan93 5y ago

>1. No comprehensive supercharger network. This is a real big deal still. Yes. I considered CarPlay a must-have feature, but no EVs out there matched the Supercharger network, which led to a Tesla purchase. >4. No Autopilot. Tesla is definitely overselling this. The only real time I've used Autopilot for an extended period of time was driving I-5 from SF to/from LA, and other ICE cars accomplish this too.

syshum 5y ago

>> No Autopilot. This is a big sell for many EV users. Ford is targeting Truck Buyers, not "EV Users", and I can assure you Ford knows Truck Buyers, and i can also Assure you we do not care or even want Autopilot. We love to drive our trucks. >>No comprehensive supercharger network. I fully expect Ford to have this solved by the time the first Truck rolls off the line, I could be wrong but Ford has a ton of partnerships and pull. Hell even if the only chargers where at every dealership that would likely rival Telsa's network out of the box. However I fully expect deals to be made likely in concert with other Manufactures over the next 12 mos so I think this will end up being a non-issue >>Software rollouts. Ford has been working on this but it is still not Solved. I still not sure how I feel about this "feature", one of the reason I dislike Tesla is their belief they should be allowed to modify the car I supposedly bought from them anytime they want over the air. Treating the car like it was an Apple iPhone (which I also do not own) Ford has a careful balancing act here. Ford owners want to OWN their truck, not rent it from Ford

fma 5y ago

I don't think many people will be driving an EV Ford F-150 cross country. Minivan...yes. SUV yes. Work truck, not likely. If people have the occasional need to drive cross country, just rent a gas vehicle till the infrastructure is there. Till then it's just fear mongering causes a slower adoption of EV, which means a slower rollout of a national network.

Kerrick 5y ago
One of the things I need a truck for is to tow a trailer with cows inside to (and back from) a facility that can extract eggs, implant embryos, etc. Unfortunately, that route doesn't follow any interstate highways and is about 180 miles each way. I'd absolutely LOVE to tow them with an electric truck and eliminate emissions from the picture. I've been eagerly awaiting something like the Cybertruck/Lightning, but until they get MUCH more mileage or hot-swap batteries I just can't make the switch. There is one fast-charge station in the middle, but none near the destination--and even if there was, I can't add charging stops with a trailered cow. I agree that overselling the importance of uncommon use cases is a hindrance to EV adoption in general, but this is a pickup truck. The purpose of a pickup truck is to handle the uncommon use cases. It's fair to criticize this specific EV for not being good at the things that you must have a pickup truck to do.
- fma 5y ago
  Then...don't get an EV truck? You're not the target audience. Might be a 360 round trip capability. Someone else will need to take their cows 400 miles round trip...then 420? At what point is good enough is good enough. Your criticism will likely prevent someone else where it fits their use case from buying it just because of a "what if" scenario and prevents the overall cause of eliminating emissions.
  - fma 5y ago
    I reread my comment and I sound like an ass and I'm sorry. I'm just frustrated that I think we'll have a long road ahead in reaching mass adoption if people keep hearing these one off scenarios and think of the vehicles on a negative light when families can purchase 1 EV and retain 1 ICE for now and use the ICE for long trips - or, rent for long trips but my friends keep holding out for the "perfect" EV.