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>I'll keep my very efficient Audi diesel car (79g/km CO2) for now thanks. I bet that's the exact reason why you drive that exact car. Because of course the coo

>I'll keep my very efficient Audi diesel car (79g/km CO2) for now thanks. I bet that's the exact reason why you drive that exact car. Because of course the coolant, oil, acid batteries, etc. your car uses is disposed of correctly, or one of the hundreds of parts that needs replacing every X amount of time in an ICE. Never mind the waste that oil production itself causes. https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/mar/01/fossil-fuel-cars-make-hundreds-of-times-more-waste-than-electric-cars https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/mar/01/fossil-fuel... New modes of transportation and energy generation will not be 100% clean and waste free, I think it would be naive to think we could actually do that. But they can be steps in the right direction. If your cynical assumption is that we can't do it right anyway, why do you even pretend that driving your old car is somehow better? If we won't dispose of lithium batteries properly, we won't dispose of all the things your old car produces either.

ppf 5y ago
Old oil is processed and re-used (as cheaper oil, or for heating). Lead-acid batteries have practically all of the lead re-used. I'm not sure where the acid itself, nor coolant, goes, but they're not the most damaging of pollutants. >one of the hundreds of parts that needs replacing every X amount of time in an ICE Yep, it's usually one of the electronic parts, which is why I have no faith that EVs will be significantly more reliable.
- FriedrichN 5y ago
  > Old oil is processed and re-used (as cheaper oil, or for heating) Or illegally dumped if we follow OPs cynical reasoning. > it's usually one of the electronic parts I didn't know tubes, gaskets, seals, clutches, oil filters, spark plugs, fuel pumps, radiators, alternators were electronic parts. I am not claiming EVs are perfect but to propose classical ICE vehicles are somehow much better simply does not make any sense. To exist as a modern human is to have an impact on your environment.
  - ppf 5y ago
    Those are all relatively inert parts, and scrap steel and aluminium is relatively easily extracted. I didn't set out to argue that ICE vehicles are much better (although, honestly, I think it might be a defensible position), but the waste products from an end-of-life EV are significantly more damaging than those from an ICE.
    - natch 5y ago
      On what evidence are you basing that last assertion?
      - ppf 5y ago
        An end-of-life EV = an end-of-life ICE - a block of metal + a large lithium battery pack.
        natch 5y ago
        I think you are resting your argument on the assumption that a large lithium battery pack is a damaging thing then. I would then ask if there is any evidence behind this assumption.
        ppf 5y ago
        The contents of said battery pack? I suppose they are relatively inert, if you just dumped it into landfill. But then that's still much worse than ICE engines, which can be very easily recycled.
- audunw 5y ago
  I know lots of people with EVs, and never heard of a problem related to the EV drivetrain. It does happen, but most problems by far seem to be related to things other than the drivetrain. I've had a problem with 12V lead acid battery going dead too soon due to the ECU causing vampire drain, replaced on warranty though. Not related to EV drivetrain of course. For the particular EV I have, I've heard of problems with the gearbox, due to the parking break being implemented in the gearbox. That's a design left over from ICE version of the car, most (all?) new EV models don't have that. All indications I've seen so far is that EVs drivetrains are more reliable. And we have 10 year old EVs on the road now. Cars are getting more complex in general, so there may be lots of other things that can break. But it's the same with ICE cars, you just get all the extra parts needed for an ICE engine in addition. If I look up most commonly replaced car parts, around half are ICE-only. And break pads needs more frequent replacement on ICE cars.
  - ppf 5y ago
    The ECU is an integral part of the drivetrain.
ejb999 5y ago
>>we won't dispose of all the things your old car produces either. Which is exactly the point - we are already not properly disposing of things in the proper way (the 10 year old with a rock example), so what makes anyone think that it will be any different going forward? Why would anyone assume that corporations or government will do any better disposing of these 'new' things, when we have had 50-75 years to figure out how to safely dispose of the 'old' things and have so far failed; they end up being shipped overseas, so we pollute someone else's backyard, not our own.
- jl6 5y ago
  We each have a choice about whether to try solving these problems or whether to assume the status quo cannot be improved.
  - falcolas 5y ago
    What's the incentive to improve on the status quo? The infrastructure is established, the costs are low. Improving requires quite a few up-front investments and overall higher operating costs. It's hard to convince modern companies (i.e. those who focus on profit above all else) to take such hits against their market value.
sandworm101 5y ago
>> or one of the hundreds of parts that needs replacing every X amount of time in an ICE Have you owned a modern ICE engine? I can count on one hand the number of parts that my three Honda engines have needed in the last 15 years (1 car, 1 motorcycle, 1 generator). Electric engines in realworld cars need replacement at basically the same or greater rates. Those parts are made out of the same materials (rubber+metal+plastic+ceramics+lubricants) as in electric cars. As for batteries, my three hondas have very recyclable lead-acid batteries that people will pay me good money for once they die. They will never see a landfill.
- WorldMaker 5y ago
  > Those parts are made out of the same materials (rubber+metal+plastic+ceramics+lubricants) as in electric cars. Most electric motors have none of those materials except metal. Most are induction motors with few to no moving parts internally, and those that do have moving parts don't need them lubricated because they are in naturally low friction arrangements. (Versus pistons that have to be as tightly fitted to chamber walls as possible for the most power in an ICE.) Most EVs you can expect the motors may outlast the plastics in the dashboards. As for batteries, Lithium is easily recycled today. We don't have a lot of Lithium Ion battery recycling plants today because of economies of scale. There haven't been enough EVs for long enough today to have big needs to recycle their batteries. Most of the oldest EV batteries are still on the road. So far EV battery life has well exceeded expectations, across the board.
  - sandworm101 5y ago
    >> motors may outlast the plastics in the dashboards. Go to any automotive recycling facility. The cylinders are fine. IC engines regularly outlast dashboards. Modern cars get recycled when their electrical systems fail in a manner that is more expensive to fix than the car is worth. Those electrical systems (alternators, rectifiers, engine control systems) are not very much different than those in electric cars. Take a look at any tesla teardown. The difference in part number/complexity between them and an IC car are superficial at best. They even have similar liquid coolant loops, with pumps that seem to fail more often than nearly identical pumps on IC cars. https://www.fastcompany.com/90209541/meet-the-renegade-whos-teaching-the-world-to-fix-totaled-teslas https://www.fastcompany.com/90209541/meet-the-renegade-whos-...
zip1234 5y ago
Also, IC cars leak chemicals like oil and gasoline into the environment. If the diesel engine is out of tune it may also not be burning as efficiently as expected.

ppf 5y ago

Old oil is processed and re-used (as cheaper oil, or for heating). Lead-acid batteries have practically all of the lead re-used. I'm not sure where the acid itself, nor coolant, goes, but they're not the most damaging of pollutants. >one of the hundreds of parts that needs replacing every X amount of time in an ICE Yep, it's usually one of the electronic parts, which is why I have no faith that EVs will be significantly more reliable.

FriedrichN 5y ago
> Old oil is processed and re-used (as cheaper oil, or for heating) Or illegally dumped if we follow OPs cynical reasoning. > it's usually one of the electronic parts I didn't know tubes, gaskets, seals, clutches, oil filters, spark plugs, fuel pumps, radiators, alternators were electronic parts. I am not claiming EVs are perfect but to propose classical ICE vehicles are somehow much better simply does not make any sense. To exist as a modern human is to have an impact on your environment.
- ppf 5y ago
  Those are all relatively inert parts, and scrap steel and aluminium is relatively easily extracted. I didn't set out to argue that ICE vehicles are much better (although, honestly, I think it might be a defensible position), but the waste products from an end-of-life EV are significantly more damaging than those from an ICE.
  - natch 5y ago
    On what evidence are you basing that last assertion?
    - ppf 5y ago
      An end-of-life EV = an end-of-life ICE - a block of metal + a large lithium battery pack.
      - natch 5y ago
        I think you are resting your argument on the assumption that a large lithium battery pack is a damaging thing then. I would then ask if there is any evidence behind this assumption.
        ppf 5y ago
        The contents of said battery pack? I suppose they are relatively inert, if you just dumped it into landfill. But then that's still much worse than ICE engines, which can be very easily recycled.
audunw 5y ago
I know lots of people with EVs, and never heard of a problem related to the EV drivetrain. It does happen, but most problems by far seem to be related to things other than the drivetrain. I've had a problem with 12V lead acid battery going dead too soon due to the ECU causing vampire drain, replaced on warranty though. Not related to EV drivetrain of course. For the particular EV I have, I've heard of problems with the gearbox, due to the parking break being implemented in the gearbox. That's a design left over from ICE version of the car, most (all?) new EV models don't have that. All indications I've seen so far is that EVs drivetrains are more reliable. And we have 10 year old EVs on the road now. Cars are getting more complex in general, so there may be lots of other things that can break. But it's the same with ICE cars, you just get all the extra parts needed for an ICE engine in addition. If I look up most commonly replaced car parts, around half are ICE-only. And break pads needs more frequent replacement on ICE cars.
- ppf 5y ago
  The ECU is an integral part of the drivetrain.

ejb999 5y ago

>>we won't dispose of all the things your old car produces either. Which is exactly the point - we are already not properly disposing of things in the proper way (the 10 year old with a rock example), so what makes anyone think that it will be any different going forward? Why would anyone assume that corporations or government will do any better disposing of these 'new' things, when we have had 50-75 years to figure out how to safely dispose of the 'old' things and have so far failed; they end up being shipped overseas, so we pollute someone else's backyard, not our own.

jl6 5y ago
We each have a choice about whether to try solving these problems or whether to assume the status quo cannot be improved.
- falcolas 5y ago
  What's the incentive to improve on the status quo? The infrastructure is established, the costs are low. Improving requires quite a few up-front investments and overall higher operating costs. It's hard to convince modern companies (i.e. those who focus on profit above all else) to take such hits against their market value.

sandworm101 5y ago

>> or one of the hundreds of parts that needs replacing every X amount of time in an ICE Have you owned a modern ICE engine? I can count on one hand the number of parts that my three Honda engines have needed in the last 15 years (1 car, 1 motorcycle, 1 generator). Electric engines in realworld cars need replacement at basically the same or greater rates. Those parts are made out of the same materials (rubber+metal+plastic+ceramics+lubricants) as in electric cars. As for batteries, my three hondas have very recyclable lead-acid batteries that people will pay me good money for once they die. They will never see a landfill.

WorldMaker 5y ago
> Those parts are made out of the same materials (rubber+metal+plastic+ceramics+lubricants) as in electric cars. Most electric motors have none of those materials except metal. Most are induction motors with few to no moving parts internally, and those that do have moving parts don't need them lubricated because they are in naturally low friction arrangements. (Versus pistons that have to be as tightly fitted to chamber walls as possible for the most power in an ICE.) Most EVs you can expect the motors may outlast the plastics in the dashboards. As for batteries, Lithium is easily recycled today. We don't have a lot of Lithium Ion battery recycling plants today because of economies of scale. There haven't been enough EVs for long enough today to have big needs to recycle their batteries. Most of the oldest EV batteries are still on the road. So far EV battery life has well exceeded expectations, across the board.
- sandworm101 5y ago
  >> motors may outlast the plastics in the dashboards. Go to any automotive recycling facility. The cylinders are fine. IC engines regularly outlast dashboards. Modern cars get recycled when their electrical systems fail in a manner that is more expensive to fix than the car is worth. Those electrical systems (alternators, rectifiers, engine control systems) are not very much different than those in electric cars. Take a look at any tesla teardown. The difference in part number/complexity between them and an IC car are superficial at best. They even have similar liquid coolant loops, with pumps that seem to fail more often than nearly identical pumps on IC cars. https://www.fastcompany.com/90209541/meet-the-renegade-whos-teaching-the-world-to-fix-totaled-teslas https://www.fastcompany.com/90209541/meet-the-renegade-whos-...

zip1234 5y ago

Also, IC cars leak chemicals like oil and gasoline into the environment. If the diesel engine is out of tune it may also not be burning as efficiently as expected.