5 ms·
> To me, this is infinitely more readable: Yes, to you. Just like Chinese would be infinitely less readable to you, if you don't know Chinese. Do you think th
by geocar 5y ago
> To me, this is infinitely more readable:
Yes, to you. Just like Chinese would be infinitely less readable to you, if you don't know Chinese.
Do you think this is a deep observation?
The real challenge is knowing whether it is worth it to learn k so that it becomes readable.
- How many characters is it? This is a useful metric when you realise bug/defect rate is proportional to the physical size (in rows and columns of source code) of a program given equivalent processes (Moore 1992; McConnell 1993) but that process matters more than anything else. Not tooling, not "memory safety", and certainly not "readability" by people unfamiliar with the language.
However "readable" you think your rust code is, did you notice the bug in your rust code? (hint: input is not supposed to be mutable)
- How fast is it? On my 2014 i7 macbook air, the supplied us averages 232 msec for 100k cycles. My version
us:{$[x~(z;y);,"_";y]}[(*K;,"*")]':
is faster: 126msec for 100k cycles.
- How quickly was it written? I can't speak for sa/atw on us since I didn't see them write it. I wrote mine in about 30 seconds including testing. Yes really. How long did your rust program take to write? Did you think simply because you thought you understood the requirements that you didn't need to test it?
- How quickly can someone familiar with the language read it? Again, I can't speak for anyone other than myself, but I'm not a k expert -- I program in it very infrequently, and the new amend-syntax in k9 I had not run across previously. And yet I read it as quickly as I said.
These four values (less code, fast run, fast write, fast read) are the biggest most important things to me. And anyone who shows me all four of things will get my attention.
Rust? Simply does not impress.
> Unreadable array languages are popular with quants because they work in a highly competitive, cut-throat industry where "write only" languages provide job security.
That's another interesting opinion. This one might even be true amongst some quants (Most of the ones I know that use k don't particularly like k). But I suggest you try not to expect the worst in people. Yes, some people are assholes, but most people aren't. And for what it's worth, I'm not a quant (I work in Advertising).
- jiggawatts 5y ago> 126msec for 100k cycles. Or to put it another way: 1,200 nanoseconds. That's about 3,000-5,000 instructions on a modern CPU. Believe it or not, that's actually pretty bad. After jumping through some hoops to ensure that rustc doesn't just compile the whole thing down to a constant, I benchmarked my version as taking 15-20 nanoseconds per iteration. About 45-80 instructions! I actually couldn't quite believe it myself, so I jumped through more hoops to ensure that it wasn't being optimised away, wasn't getting inlined too aggressively, etc... No change. Ran it through Godbolt to inspect the assembly, and then I realised that, yes, modern languages, compilers, and CPUs really are this good! Think about it: For the specific input example with 4 strings the algorithm boils down to: compare 7 bytes with 7 bytes, replace a pointer with another pointer, then compare 2 bytes with 2 bytes three times. That's about a hundred assembly instructions, or thereabouts. Godbolt output: push rbp push r15 push r14 push r13 push r12 push rbx push rax mov r12,rdi mov ebx,0x8 xor ebp,ebp lea r14,[rip+0x3cb3c] # 444e8 <anon.6527da4acb4810bb73692fa85a2e25ef.0.llvm.5506334730328533235+0x20> mov r15,QWORD PTR [rip+0x3f3b5] # 46d68 <bcmp@GLIBC_2.2.5> cs nop WORD PTR [rax+rax*1+0x0] nop DWORD PTR [rax] cmp rbp,0x2 je 79f2 <example::testabc+0x62> mov r13,rbp mov rdx,QWORD PTR [rbx+r14*1] cmp rdx,QWORD PTR [r12+rbx*1] jne 79ec <example::testabc+0x5c> lea rbp,[r13+0x1] mov rsi,QWORD PTR [r12+rbx*1-0x8] mov rdi,QWORD PTR [rbx+r14*1-0x8] call r15 add rbx,0x10 test eax,eax je 79c0 <example::testabc+0x30> cmp r13,0x2 jb 7a07 <example::testabc+0x77> lea rax,[rip+0x3060e] # 38007 <_fini+0xd13> mov QWORD PTR [r12+0x10],rax mov QWORD PTR [r12+0x18],0x1 xor ebx,ebx xor ebp,ebp nop DWORD PTR [rax+rax*1+0x0] cmp rbp,0x2 je 7a43 <example::testabc+0xb3> mov r13,rbp mov rdx,QWORD PTR [rbx+r14*1+0x8] cmp rdx,QWORD PTR [r12+rbx*1+0x18] jne 7a3d <example::testabc+0xad> lea rbp,[r13+0x1] mov rsi,QWORD PTR [r12+rbx*1+0x10] mov rdi,QWORD PTR [rbx+r14*1] call r15 add rbx,0x10 test eax,eax je 7a10 <example::testabc+0x80> cmp r13,0x2 jb 7a58 <example::testabc+0xc8> lea rax,[rip+0x305bd] # 38007 <_fini+0xd13> mov QWORD PTR [r12+0x20],rax mov QWORD PTR [r12+0x28],0x1 mov ebx,0x8 xor ebp,ebp nop cmp rbp,0x2 je 7a93 <example::testabc+0x103> mov r13,rbp mov rdx,QWORD PTR [rbx+r14*1] cmp rdx,QWORD PTR [r12+rbx*1+0x20] jne 7a8d <example::testabc+0xfd> lea rbp,[r13+0x1] mov rsi,QWORD PTR [r12+rbx*1+0x18] mov rdi,QWORD PTR [rbx+r14*1-0x8] call r15 add rbx,0x10 test eax,eax je 7a60 <example::testabc+0xd0> cmp r13,0x2 jb 7aa8 <example::testabc+0x118> lea rax,[rip+0x3056d] # 38007 <_fini+0xd13> mov QWORD PTR [r12+0x30],rax mov QWORD PTR [r12+0x38],0x1 add rsp,0x8 pop rbx pop r12 pop r13 pop r14 pop r15 pop rbp ret nop WORD PTR [rax+rax*1+0x0] Rust? It simply impresses.
- geocar 5y agoI'm not sure getting the wrong answer fast is something to be proud of. Your rust code has a bug in it, is longer, and you spent more time on it.
- jiggawatts 5y agoPlease elaborate on that bug. The rust function I provided replaces "select, *" correctly with "select, _". Is that not what it was supposed to do? I checked that it works with empty arrays, arrays with one entry, etc... Thinking about it, this version boils down the logic to its barest essence: fn test(input: &mut [&str]) { let mut was_select = false; for i in input.iter_mut() { if was_select && *i == "*" { *i = "_"; was_select = false; } else { was_select = *i == "select"; } } } It runs in 5.5 nanoseconds per iteration, which is just absurdly fast. That's about 200x faster than your K version! What I like about this Rust version is that it reflects the approach that for a computer processor is optimal, yet it is high-level and readable. I could convert that "test" function easily enough to a generic "replace" function similar to a string search & replace, but one that can operate on any mutable iterator with the maximum possible efficiency, not just arrays. Then, your K code that requires "careful reading" to slowly tease apart the meaning could be converted to a form that is practically prose: let mut input = ["select", "*", "bar", "potato"]; replace( &mut input, &["select", "*"], &["select", "_"] );*
- geocar 5y ago> The rust function I provided replaces "select, *" correctly with "select, _". Is that not what it was supposed to do? No. It is not supposed to modify its input but return a copy.
- jiggawatts 5y agoGranted, if replacing arbitrary sequences with arbitrary sequences, then copying is necessary, as this could result in the output length increasing. However, for replacing scalars only, the in-place mutable version is in some sense superior: it doesn't force a memory allocation. Moreover it can be trivially converted into a copying version by simply wrapping it in a function that first copies the input, and then mutates it in-place. The reverse is not true: the copying version cannot be wrapped to create a non-allocating version. To be honest, I wish more languages put this kind of effort into their standard libraries, but most have about 10% of what I would like to see. For example, this kind of "string matching" is really "sequence matching" and ought to be fully generic for any underlying comparable and copyable type, not just arrays of characters. String search algorithms like Boyer-Moore ought to be directly applicable to arrays of integers or enums, e.g.: for recognition of code patterns in lists of parsed tokens. At least one person has done something like this for Rust: https://github.com/peterjoel/rust-iter-replace/blob/6c575eebf11ef7d5110cbb3557e31f7f754f62e6/src/lib.rs#L202-L206 https://github.com/peterjoel/rust-iter-replace/blob/6c575eeb... Similarly, there's the new InPlaceIterable, which is interesting but not quite enough to suit my taste: https://doc.rust-lang.org/std/iter/trait.InPlaceIterable.html https://doc.rust-lang.org/std/iter/trait.InPlaceIterable.htm...