4 ms·

The era is not different. Today probably he would also only get 9 years in Germany.

OakNinja 5y ago
Same in Sweden.
froh 5y ago
different approaches to resocialisation and reduction of crime rate? I don't fully understand the real goals of the US system. very recent discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27205726 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27205726
- bobthepanda 5y ago
  The real goals are to satisfy the belief systems of those who subscribe to “fire and brimstone”, where criminals are sinners who must be punished. It’s (sometimes) less religious in nature these days but the undercurrent has always been in the US since pre-colonial times.
  - josefx 5y ago
    It is closer to old testament style punishment in a country that pretends to be largely christian. Do they even know about that Jesus guy and the books written about him (new testament)? The amount of corruption, sheriffs getting to pocket the money for prison food, judges getting kickbacks for convictions, guaranteed prison quotas, exceptions from slavery laws, etc. don't help either.
    - TeMPOraL 5y ago
      It's way past Old Testament, and closer to the scary stories Israelites were told about what their neighboring nations are doing. Laws given/described in Old Testament were harsh, but there was a sense of proportionality in them.
      - paulryanrogers 5y ago
        Take care not to romanticize the Old Testament or its laws. Plenty of genocide and wives-of-jealous-husbands-must-drink-dusty-water misogyny in there. IME the excuses made for it and cherry picking from it have only reinforced bad habits. Stuff like appeal to authority, survivorship bias, and trusting intuition over data.
  - jquery 5y ago
    Penalties in Japan and China are often worse despite no tradition of fire and brimstone. Feels like you’re just taking your own personal biases and stretching them to explain complex phenomena.
    - bobthepanda 5y ago
      Neither incarcerates anywhere near as large a proportion of their population. The US jails 631 per 100,000 compared to 121 in China and 38 in Japan. There are certainly other factors, like the presence of a large group of “othered” people with less opportunity, but there is no doubt a vengeance streak running through the American conversation on criminal punishment. > According to official ballot materials promoting the original Three Strikes law, the sentencing scheme was intended to “keep murderers, rapists, and child molesters behind bars, where they belong.” However, today, more than half of inmates sentenced under the law are serving sentences for nonviolent crimes. https://law.stanford.edu/three-strikes-project/three-strikes-basics/ https://law.stanford.edu/three-strikes-project/three-strikes...
      - jquery 5y ago
        Americans commit crime at vastly higher rates than Japanese, so it makes sense that the number of Americans in jail is higher. Or is there some ideal number of people in jail we should be aiming for, regardless of crime?
        bobthepanda 5y ago
        The US has the highest rate of incarceration globally, with about 21% of prisoners in 2015 despite having only 4.4% of world population. 639 per 100k is a pretty high rate. The 2nd ranked OECD country for incarceration rate, Turkey, has 335 per 100k. Despite the high incarceration rate, the US is ranked third in the OECD for homicide, fourth in rape, eighth in robbery, sixteenth in assault, thirteenth in burglary and tenth in vehicle theft in the OECD. The US generally also jails people longer than most other countries; the ratio of people in prison to people who get convicted per year is much higher than in other countries, and those weren't the first "tough-on-crime" laws by any means. And so for the highest imprisonment rate in the world, amongst the OECD the United States is still amongst the top half of the 32 OECD countries for every category of violent crime. It's not like these are short-term effects either, we've been jailing people under three-strikes for a generation going on two. It's pretty clear evidence that a high rate of imprisonment is not actually reducing crime. https://www.civitas.org.uk/content/files/crime_stats_oecdjan2012.pdf https://www.civitas.org.uk/content/files/crime_stats_oecdjan...
  - dkarl 5y ago
    The fire and brimstone crowd did not initially lock people away for extended periods of time. They whipped people, publicly shamed them, executed them, etc. The "penitentiary" was explicitly a reformist idea that people could be improved by education instead of punishment. Instead of whipping and executing criminals, we would put them in an institution of "penitence" -- quiet reflection leading to appreciation of the wrongness of one's actions and the need to act in harmony with the benefit of others and society as a whole. This enlightened, benevolent approach would stress mutual benefit rather than punishment, even if it wasn't pleasant to lose one's freedom temporarily. After a while we lost our optimism about the penitentiary concept and decided that being locked up was just a pointless ordeal, which made it popular with people who believe the goals of criminal sentencing should be punishment, deterrence, and keeping dangerous people separated from society, and less popular with those who favor a benevolent approach.
- djhonovak 5y ago
  >> I don't fully understand the real goals of the US system Cheap labour. The 13 amendment of the U.S. constitution prohibits slavery, except as a punishment from crime. Prison labour is a multi-billion dollar industry.
Clewza313 5y ago
But if he tried to pull the same tricks today, thanks to omnipresent CCTV he would be caught much faster. On the other hand, if he did the cash drops with Bitcoin instead, it would be much harder to catch him -- but there wouldn't be any Gyro Gearloose devices, so we'd never heard about it either.
- arrrg 5y ago
  Surveillance cameras, especially overlooking public spaces, aren’t that common in Germany. Probably more common than they were thirty years ago but also not a constant presence. Any kind of private person or company cannot install cameras looking into public spaces at all (and yes, that includes Ring doorbells that can see the street or even just part of the sidewalk). While many of those illegal uses might fly under the radar the general ban of those uses also means that they are relatively rare and not something just anyone would do. Public institutions can install cameras seeing public spaces but they are limited by law (there needs to be a valid obvious reason for the camera to be there and the use needs to be proportionate), so blanket complete coverage of public spaces is just not happening (yeah, public institutions can probably find a bullshit excuse for any place but the culture these laws create mean that cameras are just used a lot less). Cameras in general are where you would expect them to be (e.g. around high profile government buildings), not in some random street somewhere.
  - tzekid 5y ago
    You need to visit Frankfurt. Here are CCTV cams all around public spaces and they installed even more cameras in the past two years or so...
- st_goliath 5y ago
  > On the other hand, if he did the cash drops with Bitcoin instead, ... Actually, the most recent episode of "Aktenzeichen XY ... ungelöst"[0] (a German TV show that is basically the same as "Crimewatch" or "America's Most Wanted", but predating both of them) mentioned such a case [1]. Some guy in Berlin sent bombs via mail back in 2017/2018 and demanded a ransom paid in Bitcoin. They didn't explain the details, but apparently police did trace a transaction to that wallet back to some Bitcoin vending machine and got a nice picture from there. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aktenzeichen_XY_…_ungelöst https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aktenzeichen_XY_…_ungelöst [1] https://wikixy.de/Sendung_vom_12.05.2021#Die_Studiof.C3.A4lle_der_Sendung https://wikixy.de/Sendung_vom_12.05.2021#Die_Studiof.C3.A4ll...

Same in Sweden.

froh 5y ago

different approaches to resocialisation and reduction of crime rate? I don't fully understand the real goals of the US system. very recent discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27205726 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27205726

bobthepanda 5y ago
The real goals are to satisfy the belief systems of those who subscribe to “fire and brimstone”, where criminals are sinners who must be punished. It’s (sometimes) less religious in nature these days but the undercurrent has always been in the US since pre-colonial times.
- josefx 5y ago
  It is closer to old testament style punishment in a country that pretends to be largely christian. Do they even know about that Jesus guy and the books written about him (new testament)? The amount of corruption, sheriffs getting to pocket the money for prison food, judges getting kickbacks for convictions, guaranteed prison quotas, exceptions from slavery laws, etc. don't help either.
  - TeMPOraL 5y ago
    It's way past Old Testament, and closer to the scary stories Israelites were told about what their neighboring nations are doing. Laws given/described in Old Testament were harsh, but there was a sense of proportionality in them.
    - paulryanrogers 5y ago
      Take care not to romanticize the Old Testament or its laws. Plenty of genocide and wives-of-jealous-husbands-must-drink-dusty-water misogyny in there. IME the excuses made for it and cherry picking from it have only reinforced bad habits. Stuff like appeal to authority, survivorship bias, and trusting intuition over data.
- jquery 5y ago
  Penalties in Japan and China are often worse despite no tradition of fire and brimstone. Feels like you’re just taking your own personal biases and stretching them to explain complex phenomena.
  - bobthepanda 5y ago
    Neither incarcerates anywhere near as large a proportion of their population. The US jails 631 per 100,000 compared to 121 in China and 38 in Japan. There are certainly other factors, like the presence of a large group of “othered” people with less opportunity, but there is no doubt a vengeance streak running through the American conversation on criminal punishment. > According to official ballot materials promoting the original Three Strikes law, the sentencing scheme was intended to “keep murderers, rapists, and child molesters behind bars, where they belong.” However, today, more than half of inmates sentenced under the law are serving sentences for nonviolent crimes. https://law.stanford.edu/three-strikes-project/three-strikes-basics/ https://law.stanford.edu/three-strikes-project/three-strikes...
    - jquery 5y ago
      Americans commit crime at vastly higher rates than Japanese, so it makes sense that the number of Americans in jail is higher. Or is there some ideal number of people in jail we should be aiming for, regardless of crime?
      - bobthepanda 5y ago
        The US has the highest rate of incarceration globally, with about 21% of prisoners in 2015 despite having only 4.4% of world population. 639 per 100k is a pretty high rate. The 2nd ranked OECD country for incarceration rate, Turkey, has 335 per 100k. Despite the high incarceration rate, the US is ranked third in the OECD for homicide, fourth in rape, eighth in robbery, sixteenth in assault, thirteenth in burglary and tenth in vehicle theft in the OECD. The US generally also jails people longer than most other countries; the ratio of people in prison to people who get convicted per year is much higher than in other countries, and those weren't the first "tough-on-crime" laws by any means. And so for the highest imprisonment rate in the world, amongst the OECD the United States is still amongst the top half of the 32 OECD countries for every category of violent crime. It's not like these are short-term effects either, we've been jailing people under three-strikes for a generation going on two. It's pretty clear evidence that a high rate of imprisonment is not actually reducing crime. https://www.civitas.org.uk/content/files/crime_stats_oecdjan2012.pdf https://www.civitas.org.uk/content/files/crime_stats_oecdjan...
- dkarl 5y ago
  The fire and brimstone crowd did not initially lock people away for extended periods of time. They whipped people, publicly shamed them, executed them, etc. The "penitentiary" was explicitly a reformist idea that people could be improved by education instead of punishment. Instead of whipping and executing criminals, we would put them in an institution of "penitence" -- quiet reflection leading to appreciation of the wrongness of one's actions and the need to act in harmony with the benefit of others and society as a whole. This enlightened, benevolent approach would stress mutual benefit rather than punishment, even if it wasn't pleasant to lose one's freedom temporarily. After a while we lost our optimism about the penitentiary concept and decided that being locked up was just a pointless ordeal, which made it popular with people who believe the goals of criminal sentencing should be punishment, deterrence, and keeping dangerous people separated from society, and less popular with those who favor a benevolent approach.
djhonovak 5y ago
>> I don't fully understand the real goals of the US system Cheap labour. The 13 amendment of the U.S. constitution prohibits slavery, except as a punishment from crime. Prison labour is a multi-billion dollar industry.

Clewza313 5y ago

But if he tried to pull the same tricks today, thanks to omnipresent CCTV he would be caught much faster. On the other hand, if he did the cash drops with Bitcoin instead, it would be much harder to catch him -- but there wouldn't be any Gyro Gearloose devices, so we'd never heard about it either.

arrrg 5y ago
Surveillance cameras, especially overlooking public spaces, aren’t that common in Germany. Probably more common than they were thirty years ago but also not a constant presence. Any kind of private person or company cannot install cameras looking into public spaces at all (and yes, that includes Ring doorbells that can see the street or even just part of the sidewalk). While many of those illegal uses might fly under the radar the general ban of those uses also means that they are relatively rare and not something just anyone would do. Public institutions can install cameras seeing public spaces but they are limited by law (there needs to be a valid obvious reason for the camera to be there and the use needs to be proportionate), so blanket complete coverage of public spaces is just not happening (yeah, public institutions can probably find a bullshit excuse for any place but the culture these laws create mean that cameras are just used a lot less). Cameras in general are where you would expect them to be (e.g. around high profile government buildings), not in some random street somewhere.
- tzekid 5y ago
  You need to visit Frankfurt. Here are CCTV cams all around public spaces and they installed even more cameras in the past two years or so...
st_goliath 5y ago
> On the other hand, if he did the cash drops with Bitcoin instead, ... Actually, the most recent episode of "Aktenzeichen XY ... ungelöst"[0] (a German TV show that is basically the same as "Crimewatch" or "America's Most Wanted", but predating both of them) mentioned such a case [1]. Some guy in Berlin sent bombs via mail back in 2017/2018 and demanded a ransom paid in Bitcoin. They didn't explain the details, but apparently police did trace a transaction to that wallet back to some Bitcoin vending machine and got a nice picture from there. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aktenzeichen_XY_…_ungelöst https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aktenzeichen_XY_…_ungelöst [1] https://wikixy.de/Sendung_vom_12.05.2021#Die_Studiof.C3.A4lle_der_Sendung https://wikixy.de/Sendung_vom_12.05.2021#Die_Studiof.C3.A4ll...