4 ms·

U.S. Treasury seeks reporting of cryptocurrency transfers

84 points by awb 5y ago

rjzzleep 5y ago
I wonder if any of this was prompted by Elon Musk like pump and dumps. Most pump and dumps in the past were twitter, telegram or IRC rallied pseudonyms. I think the using your billion dollar company to pump and dump is quite new. Although the last president liked to do that with pharma companies drugs during the last pandemic.
- gruez 5y ago
  Surely they don't need mandatory reporting to rein in on corporations doing pump and dumps, when it's already plainly visible in the open?
toomuchtodo 5y ago
Previous: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27223484 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27223484 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27223604 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27223604
IG_Semmelweiss 5y ago
On the same theme, 1099 contractors beware. IRS is planning big changes around 1099-K filings Previously, payment settlers (PSEs) were required to report payments to IRS, only if they exceeded both $20,000 & 200 transactions in a given calendar year. Starting 2022, those values will be reduced to $600, and 0, respectively. In short, the IRS will know all your income. States already adopting this: VT, MA, VA, MD Edit: messed up vermont
- morpheuskafka 5y ago
  If they drop the limit to $0 they will get a lot of noise from yard sale type activity and other things that are non-taxable in nature.
  - edgyquant 5y ago
    The limit will be 600$ and >0 transactions a year (at least that’s what comment says.)
    - _delirium 5y ago
      That's the current threshold for some other kinds of 1099 forms, e.g. 1099-MISC for freelance income.
      - IG_Semmelweiss 5y ago
        Correct. But 1099 mis income requirements are largely not enforced because it would be expensive and unpopular if they focused on the lemonade stand of Ms Jane. So, there is a ton of noncompliance. The IRS is going upstream on those transactions, by enforcing compliance at the pay processor level. At that point,there is no mistake. You got a 1099k, and you chose to ignore it. The onus is no longer on the customer to send you a 1099. Its on the money processing service.
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - soonerroadie 5y ago
    Well, for one, selling stuff at a yard sale isn’t non-taxable. But generally you don’t have to pay tax because you’re selling things for less than you bought them for (you have a personal loss that is non deductible). If you sell it for more than you paid, you have gain that is taxable (but often unreported). But in any event, 1099-K reporting is only from a payment processor - if you accept cash where there is no payment processor involved there wouldn’t be any reporting. But if you sell some stuff on eBay, you might get a 1099 from them or PayPal. Then, you will have to show the proceeds from the sales and your basis, or the IRS matching program may indicate that you have unreported income.
- nabeards 5y ago
  VE?
WarOnPrivacy 5y ago
Filed with: Auditing poor people and other stuff the IRS prefers spending resources on. ref: https://www.propublica.org/article/irs-now-audits-poor-americans-at-about-the-same-rate-as-the-top-1-percent https://www.propublica.org/article/irs-now-audits-poor-ameri...
- peteretep 5y ago
  You've replied to this story about a doubling of IRS headcount with an article that complains about how the IRS is too starved of resources to go after the rich, and somehow come to the conclusion that it's more of the same.
  - WarOnPrivacy 5y ago
    You seem to be making some kind of observation but it is unclear what that is. Precisely, what is your point here?
    - peteretep 5y ago
      This article describes a mitigation to the problem in the article you have linked, and you have instead described it an aggravation of that problem.
purple_ferret 5y ago
Trump 2024
- christiansakai 5y ago
  I'm a Trump hater, but yeah, let's do that. I'm sick of AOC. She is now just the leftist version of Trump, tweeting all day. I welcome the downvotes.
ed25519FUUU 5y ago
The government is in a pretty strong position of leverage against US citizens. They don’t need any kind of crypto-breaking technology to control Bitcoin and they never will. They just ask you if you have it and if you sold it, and you tell the truth to them or perjure yourself and go to jail until you give up your super uncrackable TSM crypto wallet keys.
internetslave 5y ago
US government trying to claw back the money they printed. It’s too late, everyone who was holding assets will lord over the day job having hardworking Americans that weren’t so lucky. Monetary stimulus -> crypto. Thanks FED!
1MachineElf 5y ago
Violent revolution has historically been an option
- wyldfire 5y ago
  I don't know if that's practical anymore.
filereaper 5y ago
>"The IRS investment plan also would replace the Treasury's 1960s-era computer architecture with new machine-learning-capable systems that will be better able to detect suspect tax returns. IRS is the only federal agency with computers that run on the antiquated Common Business-Oriented Language (COBOL) system, Treasury said." This is a dumb statement, they're referring to zSeries that derives from System 360. This architecture is has been running fine for decades. This isn't to say the zSeries isn't up-to-date, go check the latest HotChips conference to see what's coming down the pipe. There's nothing wrong with COBOL either its been running for decades doing boring but essential things like payroll and taxes. Sprinkle all the latest flavours of ML you want alongside it but this feels like a cheap shot. I expected better journalism from Reuters.
- TameAntelope 5y ago
  I hate to say it, but buy Palantir stock, because the IRS isn't going to do this alone...
- tablespoon 5y ago
  > There's nothing wrong with COBOL either its been running for decades doing boring but essential things like payroll and taxes. IIRC, some extremely core IRS systems are actually written in IBM 360 Assembly. A few years back, there was a project to develop an automated translator to convert that code to Java, but the project failed. The lead engineer was hired on some special authorization to get around government salary limits, but that authorization couldn't be renewed before the project was done. I don't remember the specifics, but I recall reading there's an actual IBM 7000 series mainframe still in government service. It has some kind of wrapper implemented to allow it to be called by more modern systems.
  - filereaper 5y ago
    >IIRC, some extremely core IRS systems are actually written in IBM 360 Assembly. Yeah, this language is called PL/X and its specifically not for use outside the company. Its a language between Assembly and C and gives the programmer a huge amount of control over the hardware. Going from PL/X to Java won't work as well as the JVM runtime has overheads that might not be acceptable for 31bit zSeries with its 2gb address space. Also compared to PL/X you're giving up a huge amount of control.
mshumi 5y ago
In many of these discussions why do we always refer to government as an abstract "they", why is it never "we or us". I think we've lost a connection between services provided by government for the public good and the means to pay-in for those services. Historically you paid taxes in real value (grains or gold) in exchange for protection, enforcement of property rights, and public goods. We do the same today, but the current state of income taxation seems wildly disconnected from value provided by government. Personal opinion is that LVT, VAT, excise taxes, and taxation in equity is a better way to link equitable distribution of real value to benefits.
- judge2020 5y ago
  > In many of these discussions why do we always refer to government as an abstract "they", why is it never "we or us". It's probably just because we're talking about the government and the public servants that run it, not society or the country as a whole - stating 'we' could be interpreted as the writer being a government employee themselves.
- dannyw 5y ago
  People have started realising they're paying a higher % in tax than billionaires and corporations with all their loop holes. People have started realising that government is simply a form of organised oppression, aimed at keeping the working and middle class poor and letting the rich exploit them.
beiller 5y ago
Here's an idea just report your address on your tax return. Problem solved?

84 points by awb 5y ago

I wonder if any of this was prompted by Elon Musk like pump and dumps. Most pump and dumps in the past were twitter, telegram or IRC rallied pseudonyms. I think the using your billion dollar company to pump and dump is quite new. Although the last president liked to do that with pharma companies drugs during the last pandemic.

gruez 5y ago
Surely they don't need mandatory reporting to rein in on corporations doing pump and dumps, when it's already plainly visible in the open?

toomuchtodo 5y ago

Previous: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27223484 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27223484 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27223604 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27223604

IG_Semmelweiss 5y ago

On the same theme, 1099 contractors beware. IRS is planning big changes around 1099-K filings Previously, payment settlers (PSEs) were required to report payments to IRS, only if they exceeded both $20,000 & 200 transactions in a given calendar year. Starting 2022, those values will be reduced to $600, and 0, respectively. In short, the IRS will know all your income. States already adopting this: VT, MA, VA, MD Edit: messed up vermont

morpheuskafka 5y ago
If they drop the limit to $0 they will get a lot of noise from yard sale type activity and other things that are non-taxable in nature.
- edgyquant 5y ago
  The limit will be 600$ and >0 transactions a year (at least that’s what comment says.)
  - _delirium 5y ago
    That's the current threshold for some other kinds of 1099 forms, e.g. 1099-MISC for freelance income.
    - IG_Semmelweiss 5y ago
      Correct. But 1099 mis income requirements are largely not enforced because it would be expensive and unpopular if they focused on the lemonade stand of Ms Jane. So, there is a ton of noncompliance. The IRS is going upstream on those transactions, by enforcing compliance at the pay processor level. At that point,there is no mistake. You got a 1099k, and you chose to ignore it. The onus is no longer on the customer to send you a 1099. Its on the money processing service.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- soonerroadie 5y ago
  Well, for one, selling stuff at a yard sale isn’t non-taxable. But generally you don’t have to pay tax because you’re selling things for less than you bought them for (you have a personal loss that is non deductible). If you sell it for more than you paid, you have gain that is taxable (but often unreported). But in any event, 1099-K reporting is only from a payment processor - if you accept cash where there is no payment processor involved there wouldn’t be any reporting. But if you sell some stuff on eBay, you might get a 1099 from them or PayPal. Then, you will have to show the proceeds from the sales and your basis, or the IRS matching program may indicate that you have unreported income.
nabeards 5y ago
VE?

WarOnPrivacy 5y ago

Filed with: Auditing poor people and other stuff the IRS prefers spending resources on. ref: https://www.propublica.org/article/irs-now-audits-poor-americans-at-about-the-same-rate-as-the-top-1-percent https://www.propublica.org/article/irs-now-audits-poor-ameri...

peteretep 5y ago
You've replied to this story about a doubling of IRS headcount with an article that complains about how the IRS is too starved of resources to go after the rich, and somehow come to the conclusion that it's more of the same.
- WarOnPrivacy 5y ago
  You seem to be making some kind of observation but it is unclear what that is. Precisely, what is your point here?
  - peteretep 5y ago
    This article describes a mitigation to the problem in the article you have linked, and you have instead described it an aggravation of that problem.

purple_ferret 5y ago

Trump 2024

christiansakai 5y ago
I'm a Trump hater, but yeah, let's do that. I'm sick of AOC. She is now just the leftist version of Trump, tweeting all day. I welcome the downvotes.

ed25519FUUU 5y ago

The government is in a pretty strong position of leverage against US citizens. They don’t need any kind of crypto-breaking technology to control Bitcoin and they never will. They just ask you if you have it and if you sold it, and you tell the truth to them or perjure yourself and go to jail until you give up your super uncrackable TSM crypto wallet keys.

internetslave 5y ago

US government trying to claw back the money they printed. It’s too late, everyone who was holding assets will lord over the day job having hardworking Americans that weren’t so lucky. Monetary stimulus -> crypto. Thanks FED!

1MachineElf 5y ago

Violent revolution has historically been an option

wyldfire 5y ago
I don't know if that's practical anymore.

filereaper 5y ago

>"The IRS investment plan also would replace the Treasury's 1960s-era computer architecture with new machine-learning-capable systems that will be better able to detect suspect tax returns. IRS is the only federal agency with computers that run on the antiquated Common Business-Oriented Language (COBOL) system, Treasury said." This is a dumb statement, they're referring to zSeries that derives from System 360. This architecture is has been running fine for decades. This isn't to say the zSeries isn't up-to-date, go check the latest HotChips conference to see what's coming down the pipe. There's nothing wrong with COBOL either its been running for decades doing boring but essential things like payroll and taxes. Sprinkle all the latest flavours of ML you want alongside it but this feels like a cheap shot. I expected better journalism from Reuters.

TameAntelope 5y ago
I hate to say it, but buy Palantir stock, because the IRS isn't going to do this alone...
tablespoon 5y ago
> There's nothing wrong with COBOL either its been running for decades doing boring but essential things like payroll and taxes. IIRC, some extremely core IRS systems are actually written in IBM 360 Assembly. A few years back, there was a project to develop an automated translator to convert that code to Java, but the project failed. The lead engineer was hired on some special authorization to get around government salary limits, but that authorization couldn't be renewed before the project was done. I don't remember the specifics, but I recall reading there's an actual IBM 7000 series mainframe still in government service. It has some kind of wrapper implemented to allow it to be called by more modern systems.
- filereaper 5y ago
  >IIRC, some extremely core IRS systems are actually written in IBM 360 Assembly. Yeah, this language is called PL/X and its specifically not for use outside the company. Its a language between Assembly and C and gives the programmer a huge amount of control over the hardware. Going from PL/X to Java won't work as well as the JVM runtime has overheads that might not be acceptable for 31bit zSeries with its 2gb address space. Also compared to PL/X you're giving up a huge amount of control.

mshumi 5y ago

In many of these discussions why do we always refer to government as an abstract "they", why is it never "we or us". I think we've lost a connection between services provided by government for the public good and the means to pay-in for those services. Historically you paid taxes in real value (grains or gold) in exchange for protection, enforcement of property rights, and public goods. We do the same today, but the current state of income taxation seems wildly disconnected from value provided by government. Personal opinion is that LVT, VAT, excise taxes, and taxation in equity is a better way to link equitable distribution of real value to benefits.

judge2020 5y ago
> In many of these discussions why do we always refer to government as an abstract "they", why is it never "we or us". It's probably just because we're talking about the government and the public servants that run it, not society or the country as a whole - stating 'we' could be interpreted as the writer being a government employee themselves.
dannyw 5y ago
People have started realising they're paying a higher % in tax than billionaires and corporations with all their loop holes. People have started realising that government is simply a form of organised oppression, aimed at keeping the working and middle class poor and letting the rich exploit them.

beiller 5y ago

Here's an idea just report your address on your tax return. Problem solved?