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Here is the website for one of the groups pushing for this: https://www.greateridaho.org/ https://www.greateridaho.org/ Taxes are just one part of this. They l

Here is the website for one of the groups pushing for this: https://www.greateridaho.org/ https://www.greateridaho.org/ Taxes are just one part of this. They list these other issues of concern: > 1. American Values: Oregon will continue to violate more and more American values and American freedoms because normal rural Americans are outnumbered in Oregon. Not in Idaho. Addicts will be attracted to Oregon from all over the world by the 2020 drug decriminalization law. > 2. Law and Order: Oregon refuses to protect citizens from criminals, rioters, wildfire arsonists, illegals, and the homeless, but then infringes your right to defend your family with firearms. Idaho enforces the law. > 3. Low Tax: Idaho is the state with the 8th smallest tax burden, and Oregon ranks 33rd, according to https://taxfoundation.org/tax-freedom-day-2019 https://taxfoundation.org/tax-freedom-day-2019 . Combining all taxes together, including sales tax, the average Idahoan pays $1722 less in taxes per year than the average Oregonian. That’s averaging together every adult or child, employed, retired or unemployed. And cost of living is 39% higher in Oregon than in Idaho. Oregon tax rates will continue to go up due to a lack of willingness to control spending. > 4. Safety: Idaho allows forests to be managed to prevent destruction of housing from huge wildfires. > 5. Thriving Economy: Idaho has less regulation than any other state, low unemployment, and would allow our rural industries to revive and employ us again. > 6. Representation: The ruling party in the Oregon Legislature doesn’t have a single representative from a rural district or from eastern or southern Oregon, except one Ashland representative. But our reps would be in the ruling party in Idaho, where our concerns and needs would be heard.

UncleOxidant 5y ago
> 4. Safety: Idaho allows forests to be managed to prevent destruction of housing from huge wildfires. If that's true then they'd be better off moving to Idaho, right? Given the vast area involved it's difficult to imagine that in a span of even a decade or more that the forests would be transformed so as to prevent wildfires. Staying where they are would only leave them in harms way for quite some years.
Pfhreak 5y ago
> Oregon will continue to violate more and more American values and American freedoms Haha, what? If Oregon is doing stuff, it's definitionally an American value and American Freedom, right? Who gets to decide what an "American *" is? > > 4. Safety: Idaho allows forests to be managed to prevent destruction of housing from huge wildfires. They do realize that Idaho and Oregon have different climates and different precipitation amounts, right? The Western Rockies and Eastern Cascades are different biomes. > > 5. Thriving Economy: Idaho has less regulation than any other state, low unemployment, and would allow our rural industries to revive and employ us again. Is there any data that backs this up? This feels like a pipe dream to me that's totally unfounded.
- hackyhacky 5y ago
  > Haha, what? If Oregon is doing stuff, it's definitionally an American value and American Freedom, right? Who gets to decide what an "American *" is? Have you watched Fox News recently? They're very clear: "American" refers to their (conservative, older, rural) viewers; "anti-American" refers to everyone else. People believe this.
  - _qwfv 5y ago
    I know. I just... I keep hoping that by pointing out the obvious silliness of the phrase "American Values" that maybe, someone somewhere will read it and be like, "Huh, you know, maybe what I meant to say was, 'My values'...."
    - mensetmanusman 5y ago
      One interesting discussion point about American values it’s about whether it should be determined by the number of humans inside of American borders, or if it is just a birthright. I support using satellite imagery to get a day by day census count to include tourists and everyone inside of America as part of the decision making and voting process to improve infrastructure at least.
      - captainredbeard 5y ago
        Why should non-citizens have a voice in how our country is ran?
- cratermoon 5y ago
  > violate more and more American values and American freedoms By this the folks in eastern Oregon are criticizing Democratic Gov. Brown for her approach to the pandemic: you know, normal things like closing restaurants and churches, requiring masks indoors, etc.
  - _qwfv 5y ago
joshka 5y ago
>American Values ... normal rural Americans are outnumbered in Oregon What sort of logic supports that American values are those held by a minority of Americans. What possible values suggest they are the normal ones? > 3. Low Tax The counties involved have median household incomes of 30-35K, making their tax burden $600-1100 total, a far cry from the average quoted, which is skewed right strongly by outliers (1%), which tend to be outside of the counties in this idea. > 5. Thriving Economy ... low unemployment Economy is a second order effect. How does having a low unemployment affect the number of jobs in the actual areas? Cause and effect are reversed in this claim. > 6. Representation: ... But our reps would be in the ruling party in Idaho I think the word is "governing", this is a little confused about the difference.
- fyijbxmuyidudm 5y ago
  > What sort of logic supports that American values are those held by a minority of Americans. What possible values suggest they are the normal ones? The majority of the world has never shared American values. American values have always been divorced from popularity. American values does not mean something that corresponds to the values held by people that live in America, necessarily, either. And perhaps quite simply, the political majority in Portland does not, in any capacity, share a moral system with the people of rural Oregon. Furthermore, Portlander's would not identify their value system as American, nor would they associate something called "American" with something good. The people of rural Oregon would.
- troutwine 5y ago
  > What sort of logic supports that American values are those held by a minority of Americans. What possible values suggest they are the normal ones? There's a very present "last bastion" framing in most of the right-wing media I track. It'll depend on exactly what the foundational beliefs of the community are that drive this framing -- John Birch society derivative folks arrive here via a different path than white supremacist survivalists and them a different path than evangelical fundamentalist Christians -- but it's common enough. It goes hand in hand with the notion that the US has fallen from the ideal set forth by the Founders and that only your in-group really gets it and has a hope of restoring it. Alex Jones is a good, mainstream-ish example. Dude's a Bircher and has spent decades coaching his audience to believe that Globalists are in league with Satan and intend to destroy humanity, if only they could get the US out of the way. Satan/The Globalists are _this_ close to succeeding. Once they do, Real American Values will disappear from the world, ushering in the post-human era. Jones preaches survivalism (sorta, feeding your neighbors to your daughters will give your daughters prion disease) to his audience and I hope you see how the two strains of thought would fester into a framing like you've called out.
mjevans 5y ago
That's more informative than the article was, thank you. Points 1 and 2 should be combined and addressed as "how civil services protect and better the community". The issues of homelessness, drug addiction, and dis-enfranchisement of displaced people all relate to failed social safety nets and social planning. My understanding is that decades ago, in the early 80s IIRC, a terrible abuse and system for housing the mentally ill was disbanded. Unfortunately nothing took it's place. There are also very troubling issues related to lack of housing, lack of jobs, and lack of a proper program to connect displaced individuals with that type of societal re-integration. A New "New Deal", in any form, could enrich the value of society by re-educating and providing jobs which enrich the commons of society thus improving the lives and economic fitness of all. Better those handouts from our taxes trickle up to the rich, as all else currently does, than go directly to their coffers in tax cuts. Point 3, and probably 5 as well: The report I suggested would be the best way of understanding this issue for everyone. The issue is Taxes VS Benefits; not absolute tax taken. Until the balance of benefits to taxes is understood this is a straw man which needs more data for all sides to understand. Point 5: Regulation in specific. Ideally regulation prevents more problems than it causes. Regulation should allow assumptions about fitness for use, safety, and fairness to all parties involved to exist. If there is some regulation which does not contribute to this common good, to the preservation of the commons, or if there is a lack of regulation which is resulting in abuse, then said regulations should be revisited by the representatives of the people. 6: "the ruling party" I take this as slang for the currently dominant political party, but it is strikingly 'Us' vs 'Them' and very divisively secessionist. Extremely misguided. Reform of our electoral systems and categorization of representation should be undertaken to finally liberate all citizens from the First Past The Post voting system to ANY kind of instant runoff. We need to have a spectrum of political parties to promote compromise and plans that work for many rather than for few.
- fyijbxmuyidudm 5y ago
  Point 6 goes beyond the voting system. The divide between the moral systems of the people of Portland and the people of rural Oregon, which mirrors the divide of the rest of the country, is a genuine religious schism. The iconoclastic woke and the Christians do not and do not want to share moral beliefs or behavior. There is no resolution to this.
schaefer 5y ago
Can I just say, for me the use of the term "illegals" under the section of Law and Order comes across as a dehumanizing slur. how unfortunate.
- ModernMech 5y ago
  I'm struck by how "homeless" is included in a list containing "criminals", "arsonists", and "rioters". The homeless aren't people we need protection from, they're people we need to help.
  - hackyhacky 5y ago
    Traditional conservative dogma requires the belief that poverty or misfortune follows from an inherent moral failing, never from circumstance. Therefore criminals cannot be reformed, homeless cannot be helped. The only solution is to remove them.
    - iammisc 5y ago
      Of course traditional conservative dogma also has extremely strong private safety nets. Just look at Utah and the mormons. Or the Amish. I mean, I understand that many people do not understand this, but I have found that atheists and the unchurched cannot comprehend just how substantial most church support programs are. In my old parish, my wife and I practically lived at the place and when we had our first baby, we got free baby-sitting, meals, company, etc, even though we were far from our families. Many we know in our town (Portland, mostly irreligious) have to pay for this. How sad. This is what I find so bizarre about the 'left' in this country (in quotes because I'm making wild generalizations). They say they are all about community and social ownership and responsibility, but they don't actually do it. Their ideal is lived out everyday in churches across the country. It used to be the case that the 'left' in this country (by that I mean the democratic party) was made up of the churched, so their ideals for social programs matched their lifestyles of intense social participation and private contributions to welfare programs. But today, the right is the one most likely to contribute to charity, and in my opinion, the one most likely to live in the leftist utopia. I'll give an example. I hear all the time from those around me (I live in Portland) about family members homeless due to schizophrenia. As a very conservative religious man (and child of immigrants, so maybe it's that), I find this incredibly odd. My uncle has schizophrenia and was deported from this country after going after someone with a knife. However, at no point was he ever homeless. My mother and father -- both incredibly unwavering law and order types -- kept my uncle in their house and assumed absolute responsibility for him until he was sent back to India. Once he was there, at no point was he allowed to live in destitution on the streets (we are not a rich family either). Eventually, he married a woman he knew (and who knew about his condition and has been able to manage it) and he has kids. Don't get me wrong.... the man is still crazy in a sense. At one point, he made up a religion unbeknownst to us, proclaimed himself God, and got many hundreds of followers on facebook. But at no point could we have ever imagined him homeless. In my view, what's missing in America is any sort of actual concern for our fellow man, our family most importantly. Everyone seems to want to outsource 'caring' for others to the government instead of actually doing the hard work. Here's another example. Leftists want community health care. Okay, that's fine. But again, right-wing Christians are the ones actually doing it. Health sharing ministries see Christians pool together money so that no congregant has to face undue financial hardship. If you join this ministry you essentially get a 'tax' each month representing your 'share' of all members total emergency expenses. Again, supposedly thrifty conservatives simply giving their money away to actually help people instead of waiting. I don't get it.
akomtu 5y ago
Looks like it's the old dispute about 2A and I kind of understand them. Last time I heard, Oregon voted to outlaw mags with more than 10 bullets. Rural folks have disagreed and resolved the conflict in a civil manner: by declaring that they will have different laws from the big city Oregon.
- chrononaut 5y ago
  Not sure what they've done in practice here from what you wrote. Are you implying that they made a public declaration that they would simply choose to ignore such a law?
- iammisc 5y ago
  As is their right. Self-determination is an American value. EDIT: downvoted by those who believe voting and determining your area's form of governance is anti-American!
  - hackyhacky 5y ago
    We fought a war about "determining your area's form of governance." As I recall, the south lost that one.
staplung 5y ago
> 4. Safety: Idaho allows forests to be managed to prevent destruction of housing from huge wildfires. I just spent a month in central Oregon and there were proscribed burns going on all over the place. It was the most forest management I've seen in any state.
- giantrobot 5y ago
  This is coded language to mean "we can pull resources from federal/state lands but not pay for them".
  - kortex 5y ago
    I thought it was coded language for "we can let logging corporations plunder the forest with no oversight." Both works to be honest.
anonAndOn 5y ago
>violate more and more American values and American freedoms If they were really a proponent of freedom then they would support the freedom of adults to smoke/injest/snort/inject anything they want. "Addicts will be attracted to Oregon..." precisely because of that freedom.

UncleOxidant 5y ago

> 4. Safety: Idaho allows forests to be managed to prevent destruction of housing from huge wildfires. If that's true then they'd be better off moving to Idaho, right? Given the vast area involved it's difficult to imagine that in a span of even a decade or more that the forests would be transformed so as to prevent wildfires. Staying where they are would only leave them in harms way for quite some years.

Pfhreak 5y ago

> Oregon will continue to violate more and more American values and American freedoms Haha, what? If Oregon is doing stuff, it's definitionally an American value and American Freedom, right? Who gets to decide what an "American *" is? > > 4. Safety: Idaho allows forests to be managed to prevent destruction of housing from huge wildfires. They do realize that Idaho and Oregon have different climates and different precipitation amounts, right? The Western Rockies and Eastern Cascades are different biomes. > > 5. Thriving Economy: Idaho has less regulation than any other state, low unemployment, and would allow our rural industries to revive and employ us again. Is there any data that backs this up? This feels like a pipe dream to me that's totally unfounded.

hackyhacky 5y ago
> Haha, what? If Oregon is doing stuff, it's definitionally an American value and American Freedom, right? Who gets to decide what an "American *" is? Have you watched Fox News recently? They're very clear: "American" refers to their (conservative, older, rural) viewers; "anti-American" refers to everyone else. People believe this.
- _qwfv 5y ago
  I know. I just... I keep hoping that by pointing out the obvious silliness of the phrase "American Values" that maybe, someone somewhere will read it and be like, "Huh, you know, maybe what I meant to say was, 'My values'...."
  - mensetmanusman 5y ago
    One interesting discussion point about American values it’s about whether it should be determined by the number of humans inside of American borders, or if it is just a birthright. I support using satellite imagery to get a day by day census count to include tourists and everyone inside of America as part of the decision making and voting process to improve infrastructure at least.
    - captainredbeard 5y ago
      Why should non-citizens have a voice in how our country is ran?
cratermoon 5y ago
> violate more and more American values and American freedoms By this the folks in eastern Oregon are criticizing Democratic Gov. Brown for her approach to the pandemic: you know, normal things like closing restaurants and churches, requiring masks indoors, etc.
- _qwfv 5y ago

joshka 5y ago

>American Values ... normal rural Americans are outnumbered in Oregon What sort of logic supports that American values are those held by a minority of Americans. What possible values suggest they are the normal ones? > 3. Low Tax The counties involved have median household incomes of 30-35K, making their tax burden $600-1100 total, a far cry from the average quoted, which is skewed right strongly by outliers (1%), which tend to be outside of the counties in this idea. > 5. Thriving Economy ... low unemployment Economy is a second order effect. How does having a low unemployment affect the number of jobs in the actual areas? Cause and effect are reversed in this claim. > 6. Representation: ... But our reps would be in the ruling party in Idaho I think the word is "governing", this is a little confused about the difference.

fyijbxmuyidudm 5y ago
> What sort of logic supports that American values are those held by a minority of Americans. What possible values suggest they are the normal ones? The majority of the world has never shared American values. American values have always been divorced from popularity. American values does not mean something that corresponds to the values held by people that live in America, necessarily, either. And perhaps quite simply, the political majority in Portland does not, in any capacity, share a moral system with the people of rural Oregon. Furthermore, Portlander's would not identify their value system as American, nor would they associate something called "American" with something good. The people of rural Oregon would.
troutwine 5y ago
> What sort of logic supports that American values are those held by a minority of Americans. What possible values suggest they are the normal ones? There's a very present "last bastion" framing in most of the right-wing media I track. It'll depend on exactly what the foundational beliefs of the community are that drive this framing -- John Birch society derivative folks arrive here via a different path than white supremacist survivalists and them a different path than evangelical fundamentalist Christians -- but it's common enough. It goes hand in hand with the notion that the US has fallen from the ideal set forth by the Founders and that only your in-group really gets it and has a hope of restoring it. Alex Jones is a good, mainstream-ish example. Dude's a Bircher and has spent decades coaching his audience to believe that Globalists are in league with Satan and intend to destroy humanity, if only they could get the US out of the way. Satan/The Globalists are _this_ close to succeeding. Once they do, Real American Values will disappear from the world, ushering in the post-human era. Jones preaches survivalism (sorta, feeding your neighbors to your daughters will give your daughters prion disease) to his audience and I hope you see how the two strains of thought would fester into a framing like you've called out.

mjevans 5y ago

That's more informative than the article was, thank you. Points 1 and 2 should be combined and addressed as "how civil services protect and better the community". The issues of homelessness, drug addiction, and dis-enfranchisement of displaced people all relate to failed social safety nets and social planning. My understanding is that decades ago, in the early 80s IIRC, a terrible abuse and system for housing the mentally ill was disbanded. Unfortunately nothing took it's place. There are also very troubling issues related to lack of housing, lack of jobs, and lack of a proper program to connect displaced individuals with that type of societal re-integration. A New "New Deal", in any form, could enrich the value of society by re-educating and providing jobs which enrich the commons of society thus improving the lives and economic fitness of all. Better those handouts from our taxes trickle up to the rich, as all else currently does, than go directly to their coffers in tax cuts. Point 3, and probably 5 as well: The report I suggested would be the best way of understanding this issue for everyone. The issue is Taxes VS Benefits; not absolute tax taken. Until the balance of benefits to taxes is understood this is a straw man which needs more data for all sides to understand. Point 5: Regulation in specific. Ideally regulation prevents more problems than it causes. Regulation should allow assumptions about fitness for use, safety, and fairness to all parties involved to exist. If there is some regulation which does not contribute to this common good, to the preservation of the commons, or if there is a lack of regulation which is resulting in abuse, then said regulations should be revisited by the representatives of the people. 6: "the ruling party" I take this as slang for the currently dominant political party, but it is strikingly 'Us' vs 'Them' and very divisively secessionist. Extremely misguided. Reform of our electoral systems and categorization of representation should be undertaken to finally liberate all citizens from the First Past The Post voting system to ANY kind of instant runoff. We need to have a spectrum of political parties to promote compromise and plans that work for many rather than for few.

fyijbxmuyidudm 5y ago
Point 6 goes beyond the voting system. The divide between the moral systems of the people of Portland and the people of rural Oregon, which mirrors the divide of the rest of the country, is a genuine religious schism. The iconoclastic woke and the Christians do not and do not want to share moral beliefs or behavior. There is no resolution to this.

schaefer 5y ago

Can I just say, for me the use of the term "illegals" under the section of Law and Order comes across as a dehumanizing slur. how unfortunate.

ModernMech 5y ago
I'm struck by how "homeless" is included in a list containing "criminals", "arsonists", and "rioters". The homeless aren't people we need protection from, they're people we need to help.
- hackyhacky 5y ago
  Traditional conservative dogma requires the belief that poverty or misfortune follows from an inherent moral failing, never from circumstance. Therefore criminals cannot be reformed, homeless cannot be helped. The only solution is to remove them.
  - iammisc 5y ago
    Of course traditional conservative dogma also has extremely strong private safety nets. Just look at Utah and the mormons. Or the Amish. I mean, I understand that many people do not understand this, but I have found that atheists and the unchurched cannot comprehend just how substantial most church support programs are. In my old parish, my wife and I practically lived at the place and when we had our first baby, we got free baby-sitting, meals, company, etc, even though we were far from our families. Many we know in our town (Portland, mostly irreligious) have to pay for this. How sad. This is what I find so bizarre about the 'left' in this country (in quotes because I'm making wild generalizations). They say they are all about community and social ownership and responsibility, but they don't actually do it. Their ideal is lived out everyday in churches across the country. It used to be the case that the 'left' in this country (by that I mean the democratic party) was made up of the churched, so their ideals for social programs matched their lifestyles of intense social participation and private contributions to welfare programs. But today, the right is the one most likely to contribute to charity, and in my opinion, the one most likely to live in the leftist utopia. I'll give an example. I hear all the time from those around me (I live in Portland) about family members homeless due to schizophrenia. As a very conservative religious man (and child of immigrants, so maybe it's that), I find this incredibly odd. My uncle has schizophrenia and was deported from this country after going after someone with a knife. However, at no point was he ever homeless. My mother and father -- both incredibly unwavering law and order types -- kept my uncle in their house and assumed absolute responsibility for him until he was sent back to India. Once he was there, at no point was he allowed to live in destitution on the streets (we are not a rich family either). Eventually, he married a woman he knew (and who knew about his condition and has been able to manage it) and he has kids. Don't get me wrong.... the man is still crazy in a sense. At one point, he made up a religion unbeknownst to us, proclaimed himself God, and got many hundreds of followers on facebook. But at no point could we have ever imagined him homeless. In my view, what's missing in America is any sort of actual concern for our fellow man, our family most importantly. Everyone seems to want to outsource 'caring' for others to the government instead of actually doing the hard work. Here's another example. Leftists want community health care. Okay, that's fine. But again, right-wing Christians are the ones actually doing it. Health sharing ministries see Christians pool together money so that no congregant has to face undue financial hardship. If you join this ministry you essentially get a 'tax' each month representing your 'share' of all members total emergency expenses. Again, supposedly thrifty conservatives simply giving their money away to actually help people instead of waiting. I don't get it.

akomtu 5y ago

Looks like it's the old dispute about 2A and I kind of understand them. Last time I heard, Oregon voted to outlaw mags with more than 10 bullets. Rural folks have disagreed and resolved the conflict in a civil manner: by declaring that they will have different laws from the big city Oregon.

chrononaut 5y ago
Not sure what they've done in practice here from what you wrote. Are you implying that they made a public declaration that they would simply choose to ignore such a law?
iammisc 5y ago
As is their right. Self-determination is an American value. EDIT: downvoted by those who believe voting and determining your area's form of governance is anti-American!
- hackyhacky 5y ago
  We fought a war about "determining your area's form of governance." As I recall, the south lost that one.

staplung 5y ago

> 4. Safety: Idaho allows forests to be managed to prevent destruction of housing from huge wildfires. I just spent a month in central Oregon and there were proscribed burns going on all over the place. It was the most forest management I've seen in any state.

giantrobot 5y ago
This is coded language to mean "we can pull resources from federal/state lands but not pay for them".
- kortex 5y ago
  I thought it was coded language for "we can let logging corporations plunder the forest with no oversight." Both works to be honest.

anonAndOn 5y ago

>violate more and more American values and American freedoms If they were really a proponent of freedom then they would support the freedom of adults to smoke/injest/snort/inject anything they want. "Addicts will be attracted to Oregon..." precisely because of that freedom.