7 ms·

An Era of Wolves

19 points by throwkeep 5y ago

presidentender 5y ago
This seems to me like largely unsourced alarmism, a just-so story with a side of moralizing about family values, civility and pornography.
minikites 5y ago
This article hearkens back to an idealized past where men and women "knew their place". The author seems to think that if we go back to medieval times where gender roles and class were rigid, society's problems would be solved. The author provides zero evidence for any of these assertions. >What happens to young men exposed to pornography, drugs, and video games as a replacement for social purpose and work? The problems of "bullshit jobs" and unemployment/underemployment are created by capitalism, not by some sort of "immutable biological truth" about men. It's capitalism that strips the meaning from work by adding layers of abstraction that separate your work from the people who benefit (your boss and their bosses) and from the people who use your work (people you may never meet or even know they exist). People want their work to be valued and appreciated, capitalism has no mechanism for that type of feedback. This is one major reason why people quit jobs at big companies to work for startups: you get to reap more of the benefits of your work and you're much closer to the users of your work. >Without society, men are mostly ferals. You cannot educate ferals, nor do ferals care about the colour of your skin; they only want to spill blood, and all blood is red. This is an alarming sentiment, again supported by zero evidence in the article. Biological arguments as a basis for "the way things should be" are incredibly suspect.
swagasaurus-rex 5y ago
For many of my friends who never went to college (and some who have), their life looks similar to how it did ten years ago: Shifting from low paying job to low paying job, moving between states just to see what it's like, insecure in housing (who can afford that?) Our economy has put a ceiling on what unskilled labor can earn, while forcing the poorest to compete against the richest in the housing market. Healthcare is simply laughable, unattainable and unaffordable. These people only birth children as a mistake. When a person can't plan for the future because all roads look as bleak as where they came from, whats to stop them from going feral?
- minikites 5y ago
  Ideally, support from society would stop them from going feral. There's no reason we have to be insecure in housing (there are more vacant homes than homeless people), no reason we couldn't have universal healthcare in the USA (plenty of other countries have it), no reason the economy has to have a ceiling on unskilled labor (during my parent's generation a factory worker could support a family). Instead, we prefer to live in a ruthless society where losing your job puts your very survival in jeopardy. The problem is capitalism, not the biology of men.
  - version_five 5y ago
    I think "support from society" along the lines of the examples you have given is part of the problem. People need something meaningful to do. I'm not trying to put forward a position of governments role in healthcare and housing, just saying they wont make the problem go away. There is a lot in the article I dont agree with, but the point that we need an outlet for human nature, basically to be part of something, I think is solid, and I don't think its solved with handouts.
    - minikites 5y ago
      I'm not suggesting we turn people into cattle. I believe that people could find meaning much more easily if there was a stronger social fabric for helping others. Individuals could work on projects meaningful to them without having to worry about a commercial component. People would have time to take care of their family and friends because they wouldn't have to work two jobs. It's about freeing people from the struggle to survive so they can use that energy to thrive.
  - itsarnavb 5y ago
    Was your society any less market-driven during your parents' generation, when the factory worker could support a family with a single income? On the other hand, are societies like India or China becoming less capitalistic, where many of these trends are broadly moving in the opposite direction?
neonological 5y ago
>We do not go feral because from a young age we are socialized in our ethnic and religious communities, have a firm family structure with roles, duties, and authority, and we have purpose. We are socialized to feel shame if we express anger outside of its proper context, and can face social repercussions such as ostracisation, ritual shaming, and even exile. We may call this chivalry, futuwwa, javanmardi, or civility. The last of those terms is important as a general catch-all phrase for how to conduct oneself in any given society. The man talks about inconvenient truths but I feel he deflects the issue with another inconvenient truth and no data to back it up. The fact of the matter is, there is correlative data that can associate certain quantitative metrics with people who go "feral." Sure family structures could contribute to this but really what's going on is socioeconomic. The likelihood of a man going feral is directly tied to his socioeconomic level in society relative to others. Data consistently shows this. It makes sense why men are biologically wired this way. You have less to lose as someone who's low on the social ladder so risky and "feral" behavior makes more sense from a cost benefit analysis. Think about it, a man is dirt poor and is therefore already ostracized because he is poor, so what does he have to lose in engaging in risky behavior where the loss is only ostracisation? The rising trend we see in the world today is directly tied to wealth inequality. It is an economic problem and one of the downfalls of capitalism (a system where there currently is no clear alternative). Family support structures is just a related side effect, but I doubt it has as much causative influence as the author thinks. There are plenty of rich people who come from broken families who do not act feral. If this was simply a family problem you'd see feral people across the economic spectrum. As wealth inequality rises you will see more and more people become feral until "feral" becomes "normal." It won't necessarily become mad max as long as people who have access to plentiful resources are able to maintain order and control. As long as there are limited resources and those limited resources are distributed unevenly this problem will always exist. Men are not stupid. People know what constitutes civilized behavior and what doesn't, don't presume that a lack of family structure makes a man so stupid that he cannot tell the difference. Men who go feral choose to go feral. That's right. It's a choice that's made based off of a cost and benefit analysis of their circumstance.
freitasm 5y ago
This article is pure political propaganda with a "hear me out" start. Should not even be linked from here.

19 points by throwkeep 5y ago

This seems to me like largely unsourced alarmism, a just-so story with a side of moralizing about family values, civility and pornography.

minikites 5y ago

This article hearkens back to an idealized past where men and women "knew their place". The author seems to think that if we go back to medieval times where gender roles and class were rigid, society's problems would be solved. The author provides zero evidence for any of these assertions. >What happens to young men exposed to pornography, drugs, and video games as a replacement for social purpose and work? The problems of "bullshit jobs" and unemployment/underemployment are created by capitalism, not by some sort of "immutable biological truth" about men. It's capitalism that strips the meaning from work by adding layers of abstraction that separate your work from the people who benefit (your boss and their bosses) and from the people who use your work (people you may never meet or even know they exist). People want their work to be valued and appreciated, capitalism has no mechanism for that type of feedback. This is one major reason why people quit jobs at big companies to work for startups: you get to reap more of the benefits of your work and you're much closer to the users of your work. >Without society, men are mostly ferals. You cannot educate ferals, nor do ferals care about the colour of your skin; they only want to spill blood, and all blood is red. This is an alarming sentiment, again supported by zero evidence in the article. Biological arguments as a basis for "the way things should be" are incredibly suspect.

swagasaurus-rex 5y ago

For many of my friends who never went to college (and some who have), their life looks similar to how it did ten years ago: Shifting from low paying job to low paying job, moving between states just to see what it's like, insecure in housing (who can afford that?) Our economy has put a ceiling on what unskilled labor can earn, while forcing the poorest to compete against the richest in the housing market. Healthcare is simply laughable, unattainable and unaffordable. These people only birth children as a mistake. When a person can't plan for the future because all roads look as bleak as where they came from, whats to stop them from going feral?

minikites 5y ago
Ideally, support from society would stop them from going feral. There's no reason we have to be insecure in housing (there are more vacant homes than homeless people), no reason we couldn't have universal healthcare in the USA (plenty of other countries have it), no reason the economy has to have a ceiling on unskilled labor (during my parent's generation a factory worker could support a family). Instead, we prefer to live in a ruthless society where losing your job puts your very survival in jeopardy. The problem is capitalism, not the biology of men.
- version_five 5y ago
  I think "support from society" along the lines of the examples you have given is part of the problem. People need something meaningful to do. I'm not trying to put forward a position of governments role in healthcare and housing, just saying they wont make the problem go away. There is a lot in the article I dont agree with, but the point that we need an outlet for human nature, basically to be part of something, I think is solid, and I don't think its solved with handouts.
  - minikites 5y ago
    I'm not suggesting we turn people into cattle. I believe that people could find meaning much more easily if there was a stronger social fabric for helping others. Individuals could work on projects meaningful to them without having to worry about a commercial component. People would have time to take care of their family and friends because they wouldn't have to work two jobs. It's about freeing people from the struggle to survive so they can use that energy to thrive.
- itsarnavb 5y ago
  Was your society any less market-driven during your parents' generation, when the factory worker could support a family with a single income? On the other hand, are societies like India or China becoming less capitalistic, where many of these trends are broadly moving in the opposite direction?

neonological 5y ago

>We do not go feral because from a young age we are socialized in our ethnic and religious communities, have a firm family structure with roles, duties, and authority, and we have purpose. We are socialized to feel shame if we express anger outside of its proper context, and can face social repercussions such as ostracisation, ritual shaming, and even exile. We may call this chivalry, futuwwa, javanmardi, or civility. The last of those terms is important as a general catch-all phrase for how to conduct oneself in any given society. The man talks about inconvenient truths but I feel he deflects the issue with another inconvenient truth and no data to back it up. The fact of the matter is, there is correlative data that can associate certain quantitative metrics with people who go "feral." Sure family structures could contribute to this but really what's going on is socioeconomic. The likelihood of a man going feral is directly tied to his socioeconomic level in society relative to others. Data consistently shows this. It makes sense why men are biologically wired this way. You have less to lose as someone who's low on the social ladder so risky and "feral" behavior makes more sense from a cost benefit analysis. Think about it, a man is dirt poor and is therefore already ostracized because he is poor, so what does he have to lose in engaging in risky behavior where the loss is only ostracisation? The rising trend we see in the world today is directly tied to wealth inequality. It is an economic problem and one of the downfalls of capitalism (a system where there currently is no clear alternative). Family support structures is just a related side effect, but I doubt it has as much causative influence as the author thinks. There are plenty of rich people who come from broken families who do not act feral. If this was simply a family problem you'd see feral people across the economic spectrum. As wealth inequality rises you will see more and more people become feral until "feral" becomes "normal." It won't necessarily become mad max as long as people who have access to plentiful resources are able to maintain order and control. As long as there are limited resources and those limited resources are distributed unevenly this problem will always exist. Men are not stupid. People know what constitutes civilized behavior and what doesn't, don't presume that a lack of family structure makes a man so stupid that he cannot tell the difference. Men who go feral choose to go feral. That's right. It's a choice that's made based off of a cost and benefit analysis of their circumstance.

freitasm 5y ago

This article is pure political propaganda with a "hear me out" start. Should not even be linked from here.