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If Wikipedia is to be believed [0], India ranks third in the list of countries ranked by number of English speakers and it's only fair to regard Indian English

If Wikipedia is to be believed [0], India ranks third in the list of countries ranked by number of English speakers and it's only fair to regard Indian English as a form of the language that is at least as valid as those from other countries. Having said that, one of the things that you have to learn when you start speaking with English speakers from around the world is to recognise which of the words in your vocabulary will be understood vs which are particular to your native country. I'd put words like "prepone" and "needful" into this category: you need to find an alternative when talking to people from places where those words aren't understood. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_English-speaking_population https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_English-s...

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
xxpor 5y ago
The difference is that Indian English exists almost entirely as a 2nd (or 3rd or 4th) language, so it'll never sound as natural. It's not the language of the street or the discourse.
- qart 5y ago
  > The difference is that Indian English exists almost entirely as a 2nd (or 3rd or 4th) language A huge number of kids in India learn English as their first and only language. Especially kids born in cities, whose parents' linguistic backgrounds differ. > it'll never sound as natural It already sounds perfectly natural to everyone here. > It's not the language of the street or the discourse. Wrong. India is not homogeneous like that. In Bangalore, an Indian walking into a shoe shop on Brigade Road will get addressed by the shopkeeper in English. Or an Indian visiting a pub in Koramangala, also gets addressed by the waiter in English. The consumption numbers of English news channels, English newspapers, etc. should give you an idea of the prevalence of English here.
  - xxpor 5y ago
    >A huge number of kids in India learn English as their first and only language "The 2011 Census showed English is the primary language—mother tongue—of 256,000 people, the second language of 83 million people, and the third language of another 46 million people, making it the second-most widely spoken language after Hindi" https://www.livemint.com/news/india/in-india-who-speaks-in-english-and-where-1557814101428.html https://www.livemint.com/news/india/in-india-who-speaks-in-e... 256K is not a huge amount. Even if that's up to 1.256 million in the last 10 years, that's nothing compared to the size of India. >It already sounds perfectly natural to everyone here It doesn't to anyone outside of the subcontinent. This could also possibly be explained by the complete lack of English language Indian media outside of India, in the US particularly. We get UK, Canadian, and sometimes even Australian and NZ programming in the US. Why no Indian? >Wrong. India is not homogeneous like that. In Bangalore, an Indian walking into a shoe shop on Brigade Road will get addressed by the shopkeeper in English. Or an Indian visiting a pub in Koramangala, also gets addressed by the waiter in English. I'm well aware. However, when a bunch of Kannada speakers are hanging out at a cafe, would they be speaking English? Of course not. English is a lingua franca, not the preferred option if there's a shared mother tongue.
    - pessimizer 5y ago
      > I'm well aware. However, when a bunch of Kannada speakers are hanging out at a cafe, would they be speaking English? Of course not. English is a lingua franca, not the preferred option if there's a shared mother tongue. That's no different than the US.
    - qart 5y ago
      Having studied in convent boarding schools, it was the norm for my classmates to not be able to speak any language except English. I was too young to care about census data back then, so I did not ask my classmates. But extrapolating much later on, I have the impression that there are millions of monolingual English speakers here. I don't trust the linguistic census of India. The instructions for census agents are complex [1], and I don't trust that the people who are forced to go door-to-door would have the energy to explain this at each house. > It doesn't to anyone outside of the subcontinent. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ My point was: who decides, and on what basis? There was a time when Australians did not consider their accent acceptable on their own news channels. They adopted RP [2]. Would you consider John Bishop's scouse accent [3] unnatural? How about all the other accents of UK, like Irish, Welsh, Scottish, etc.? > Why no Indian? No idea. The vagaries of business decisions and culture. Most Indian programs are terrible, IMO. Many of my female cousins watch Korean soap operas. Among my younger cousins, anime is the norm. All with subtitles. > when a bunch of Kannada speakers are hanging out at a cafe, would they be speaking English? Of course not. To the contrary, it would depend on the locality of the cafe, the topic of the conversation, their interpersonal dynamics, and so on. My school required us to speak just English on the premises, and would scold us if we used Kannada. Fining kids [4] is pretty common too. It eventually leads to school kids using English with each other after school too. In a city like Raichur or Kolar, the odds of Kannada being the default language are good. In Bangalore, while I think I can predict the language, my prediction would depend on a lot of local factors. [1] https://www.censusindia.gov.in/Census_Data_2001/Census_Data_Online/Language/gen_note.html https://www.censusindia.gov.in/Census_Data_2001/Census_Data_... [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnP_C6RSdJU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnP_C6RSdJU [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIshUJUvdbo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIshUJUvdbo [4] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27223807 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27223807
- screye 5y ago
  That's untrue for the current generation. I and a lot of my Indian peers consider English to be our 1st language.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

xxpor 5y ago

The difference is that Indian English exists almost entirely as a 2nd (or 3rd or 4th) language, so it'll never sound as natural. It's not the language of the street or the discourse.

qart 5y ago
> The difference is that Indian English exists almost entirely as a 2nd (or 3rd or 4th) language A huge number of kids in India learn English as their first and only language. Especially kids born in cities, whose parents' linguistic backgrounds differ. > it'll never sound as natural It already sounds perfectly natural to everyone here. > It's not the language of the street or the discourse. Wrong. India is not homogeneous like that. In Bangalore, an Indian walking into a shoe shop on Brigade Road will get addressed by the shopkeeper in English. Or an Indian visiting a pub in Koramangala, also gets addressed by the waiter in English. The consumption numbers of English news channels, English newspapers, etc. should give you an idea of the prevalence of English here.
- xxpor 5y ago
  >A huge number of kids in India learn English as their first and only language "The 2011 Census showed English is the primary language—mother tongue—of 256,000 people, the second language of 83 million people, and the third language of another 46 million people, making it the second-most widely spoken language after Hindi" https://www.livemint.com/news/india/in-india-who-speaks-in-english-and-where-1557814101428.html https://www.livemint.com/news/india/in-india-who-speaks-in-e... 256K is not a huge amount. Even if that's up to 1.256 million in the last 10 years, that's nothing compared to the size of India. >It already sounds perfectly natural to everyone here It doesn't to anyone outside of the subcontinent. This could also possibly be explained by the complete lack of English language Indian media outside of India, in the US particularly. We get UK, Canadian, and sometimes even Australian and NZ programming in the US. Why no Indian? >Wrong. India is not homogeneous like that. In Bangalore, an Indian walking into a shoe shop on Brigade Road will get addressed by the shopkeeper in English. Or an Indian visiting a pub in Koramangala, also gets addressed by the waiter in English. I'm well aware. However, when a bunch of Kannada speakers are hanging out at a cafe, would they be speaking English? Of course not. English is a lingua franca, not the preferred option if there's a shared mother tongue.
  - pessimizer 5y ago
    > I'm well aware. However, when a bunch of Kannada speakers are hanging out at a cafe, would they be speaking English? Of course not. English is a lingua franca, not the preferred option if there's a shared mother tongue. That's no different than the US.
  - qart 5y ago
    Having studied in convent boarding schools, it was the norm for my classmates to not be able to speak any language except English. I was too young to care about census data back then, so I did not ask my classmates. But extrapolating much later on, I have the impression that there are millions of monolingual English speakers here. I don't trust the linguistic census of India. The instructions for census agents are complex [1], and I don't trust that the people who are forced to go door-to-door would have the energy to explain this at each house. > It doesn't to anyone outside of the subcontinent. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ My point was: who decides, and on what basis? There was a time when Australians did not consider their accent acceptable on their own news channels. They adopted RP [2]. Would you consider John Bishop's scouse accent [3] unnatural? How about all the other accents of UK, like Irish, Welsh, Scottish, etc.? > Why no Indian? No idea. The vagaries of business decisions and culture. Most Indian programs are terrible, IMO. Many of my female cousins watch Korean soap operas. Among my younger cousins, anime is the norm. All with subtitles. > when a bunch of Kannada speakers are hanging out at a cafe, would they be speaking English? Of course not. To the contrary, it would depend on the locality of the cafe, the topic of the conversation, their interpersonal dynamics, and so on. My school required us to speak just English on the premises, and would scold us if we used Kannada. Fining kids [4] is pretty common too. It eventually leads to school kids using English with each other after school too. In a city like Raichur or Kolar, the odds of Kannada being the default language are good. In Bangalore, while I think I can predict the language, my prediction would depend on a lot of local factors. [1] https://www.censusindia.gov.in/Census_Data_2001/Census_Data_Online/Language/gen_note.html https://www.censusindia.gov.in/Census_Data_2001/Census_Data_... [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnP_C6RSdJU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnP_C6RSdJU [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIshUJUvdbo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIshUJUvdbo [4] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27223807 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27223807
screye 5y ago
That's untrue for the current generation. I and a lot of my Indian peers consider English to be our 1st language.