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Agreed. I think people are already forgetting how frantic the first few months of the pandemic were, despite the fact that it was only a year ago. Governments a

by Sanzig 5y ago

Agreed. I think people are already forgetting how frantic the first few months of the pandemic were, despite the fact that it was only a year ago. Governments around the world were placed in a no-win situation: they could do nothing and be criticized for allowing the economy to tank and causing mass unemployment, or they could throw together programs in a hurry without time to build safeguards around them deciding to fix it later. The latter was the right approach, in my opinion. Here in Canada, we have a national unemployment benefits program (Employment Insurance, or EI). Like most such programs around the world, it was wholly unprepared for the volume of applications due to the March/April 2020 lockdowns. So, the federal government introduced the CERB (Canada Emergency Response Benefit), which was a flat $2000 monthly payment offered to anyone who attested they met the eligibility criteria. There was no verification because there wasn't time to put such a system in place without unacceptably delaying release of benefits. Of course, there was plenty of fraud, which the Canada Revenue Agency (Canadian equivalent of the IRS) is in the process of investigating and cracking down on after the fact. IMO, this was exactly the right approach: time was absolutely of the essence. Get the money out, deal with the fraudsters later.

mcculley 5y ago
There were many possible options other than "do nothing" and PPP.
- anonfornoreason 5y ago
  My business got a ppp loan within 2 weeks of our “lay off five people” timeline. Any slower ppp process and we would have put a terrible burden on five people. Yes there are better programs we could develop. Don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good.
  - mcculley 5y ago
    We could have even faster just given money directly to citizens. We could have started by refunding their 2019 federal income taxes.
    - toomuchtodo 5y ago
      But we didn’t. So work towards standing up that infra for the next event (Postal banking, FedAccounts, and better tooling at the Treasury for airdropping fiat) and claw back the PPP funds obtained fraudulently and press criminal charges.
      - mcculley 5y ago
        These lessons are not new. 2008 taught us that the banks are more important than individuals.
        toomuchtodo 5y ago
        Elect better representatives.
        mcculley 5y ago
        Any good suggestions would require better elected officials. We know that won't happen. Even now, many are still loyal to the DNC and GOP.
    - ceejayoz 5y ago
      That would've left out something like 47% of citizens, mostly lower income ones in the most need of assistance.
      - mcculley 5y ago
        There is no reason we should not have sent money directly to them as well. I wrote "started by refunding".
    - kristjansson 5y ago
      At the very least PPP was targeted in the sense it went to those who asked (or were unscrupulous enough to lie).
    - idiotsecant 5y ago
TAForObvReasons 5y ago
I think people forgot the mess surrounding PPP. Publicly-traded and other large companies like Shake Shack and Ruth's Chris Steakhouse received millions in PPP loans while many small businesses did not hear back from the SBA until June or July. Bank of America prioritized customers with existing bank loans as if the PPP was a backdoor bailout for a poor small business loan portfolio. Many real small businesses were screwed due to the decision making processes. Reading about these fake loans is a gut punch. When small businesses that really needed the money were stonewalled for months, many having to shutter, it's hard to believe that oversight would have hurt
cronix 5y ago
> they could do nothing and be criticized for allowing the economy to tank and causing mass unemployment Or they could purposefully close the economy with "stay at home orders" having the same consequences, which many states in the US did.
- Sanzig 5y ago
  That's what direct-to-individual programs are for, though. In Canada we had both types of programs. Businesses qualified for loans of up to $40k, a rent subsidy, and a wage subsidy that covered up to 75% of employee wages. In cases where that was insufficient and employees had to get laid off or significantly had their hours cut, it was backstopped with a program where individuals could apply for a $2000 per month subsidy by attesting they met a list of criteria. We've had a number of lockdowns but we rode through them by having both sets of measures. My understanding is the US had similar programs to the former, but not like the latter. Other than a couple of general stimulus payments, increased unemployment benefits were delegated to state agencies, many of which were overwhelmed and weren't able to process unemployment in a timely manner.

by Sanzig 5y ago

mcculley 5y ago

There were many possible options other than "do nothing" and PPP.

anonfornoreason 5y ago
My business got a ppp loan within 2 weeks of our “lay off five people” timeline. Any slower ppp process and we would have put a terrible burden on five people. Yes there are better programs we could develop. Don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good.
- mcculley 5y ago
  We could have even faster just given money directly to citizens. We could have started by refunding their 2019 federal income taxes.
  - toomuchtodo 5y ago
    But we didn’t. So work towards standing up that infra for the next event (Postal banking, FedAccounts, and better tooling at the Treasury for airdropping fiat) and claw back the PPP funds obtained fraudulently and press criminal charges.
    - mcculley 5y ago
      These lessons are not new. 2008 taught us that the banks are more important than individuals.
      - toomuchtodo 5y ago
        Elect better representatives.
        mcculley 5y ago
        Any good suggestions would require better elected officials. We know that won't happen. Even now, many are still loyal to the DNC and GOP.
  - ceejayoz 5y ago
    That would've left out something like 47% of citizens, mostly lower income ones in the most need of assistance.
    - mcculley 5y ago
      There is no reason we should not have sent money directly to them as well. I wrote "started by refunding".
  - kristjansson 5y ago
    At the very least PPP was targeted in the sense it went to those who asked (or were unscrupulous enough to lie).
  - idiotsecant 5y ago

TAForObvReasons 5y ago

I think people forgot the mess surrounding PPP. Publicly-traded and other large companies like Shake Shack and Ruth's Chris Steakhouse received millions in PPP loans while many small businesses did not hear back from the SBA until June or July. Bank of America prioritized customers with existing bank loans as if the PPP was a backdoor bailout for a poor small business loan portfolio. Many real small businesses were screwed due to the decision making processes. Reading about these fake loans is a gut punch. When small businesses that really needed the money were stonewalled for months, many having to shutter, it's hard to believe that oversight would have hurt

cronix 5y ago

> they could do nothing and be criticized for allowing the economy to tank and causing mass unemployment Or they could purposefully close the economy with "stay at home orders" having the same consequences, which many states in the US did.

Sanzig 5y ago
That's what direct-to-individual programs are for, though. In Canada we had both types of programs. Businesses qualified for loans of up to $40k, a rent subsidy, and a wage subsidy that covered up to 75% of employee wages. In cases where that was insufficient and employees had to get laid off or significantly had their hours cut, it was backstopped with a program where individuals could apply for a $2000 per month subsidy by attesting they met a list of criteria. We've had a number of lockdowns but we rode through them by having both sets of measures. My understanding is the US had similar programs to the former, but not like the latter. Other than a couple of general stimulus payments, increased unemployment benefits were delegated to state agencies, many of which were overwhelmed and weren't able to process unemployment in a timely manner.