6 ms·

Gotta disagree. I don't care about the cut, the problem is the fact that you can't install whatever you want.

macinjosh 5y ago
I agree, if a user could check a box saying they are OK leaving Apple's walled garden they should be able to install anything they want on their device. This provides a path around the 30% cut as well. I think Apple's point is they think users are too dumb to handle that and they don't want to take any chance of user ignorance reflecting poorly on them or their product experience.
- websites420 5y ago
  > I think Apple's point is they think users are too dumb to handle that and they don't want user ignorance to reflect poorly on them or their product experience. And I sympathize with this argument, which is why I propose calling the outside-the-garden toggle “Developer Mode.” Apple already has “Pro” phones and headphones. This is just an extension of that. So when the user toggles the Developer mode they get a dialog box that says we can’t do refunds or offer support until you turn this off, which will delete any 3P apps.
  - trdtaylor1 5y ago
    This would align well (Some in Apple may say too well) with the Right To Repair movement.
  - macinjosh 5y ago
    Couldn't Epic, et. al still have an issue with this? I would see them argue that putting this behind a developer mode is still too restrictive and 'unfair.' Most user's wouldn't know what developer mode implies and Epic would have to have a list of instructions on their install page to show users how to enable it. That is not a small barrier to entry for many users. Not sure what my opinion is, just thinking out loud.
    - kevingadd 5y ago
      There are alternative App Stores for Android that put up with this, so it's at least better than nothing. If the store requests 'install app' permissions it pops up an allow/deny prompt, which isn't too user-hostile. Apple could do that. While Epic is suing Google right now, it's mostly for anti-competitive measures other than this, like threatening phone vendors to stop them from bundling Epic's store.
  - macintux 5y ago
    My concern is that once Apple offers it, various companies will tell their customers they have to enable it to install their apps, and customers will do so and blame the fallout on Apple, regardless of any disclaimer.
    - taylodl 5y ago
      There's a couple of things Apple can do to dissuade companies from taking this route: 1.) Suspend the device warranty. The warranty on your device is suspended while in "Developer Mode" or whatever it is they want to call it. They can make switching over to "Developer Mode" go through various prompts to make sure you're okay with what you're doing. 2.) When launching the app that's not from the app store they can popup a warning informing you that this application was not obtained from the app store and therefore wasn't inspected by Apple. It may contain malware that dames your device or compromises your data. 3.) Periodically popup a window for a running application that wasn't obtained from the app store. If you leave the app running then maybe you get a daily reminder that the app is still running. Maybe you can get an activity report of sorts for it to - so you can see what the app has been up to. 4.) When disabling "Developer Mode" then list all the applications not obtained from the app store that will be removed from the device. Those applications will be removed when disabling "Developer Mode." I think there's a way to do this that protect's everyone's interests and allows Apple's customers to make informed choices.
    - ascagnel_ 5y ago
      The Xbox consoles have a model that could be followed here that would be interesting: > Xbox retail consoles can have two modes, Retail Mode (1) and Developer Mode (2). In Retail Mode, the console is in its normal state: you can play games and run apps acquired through the Xbox store. In Developer Mode, you can develop and test software for the console, but you cannot play retail games or run retail apps. https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/uwp/xbox-apps/devkit-activation https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/uwp/xbox-apps/devki...
      - eigen 5y ago
        step 5: Register an app developer account in Partner Center.
ridaj 5y ago
Technically I think it's possible to install whatever you want: as part of the developer program, you can pay the dev fees (which you might not care about, if you also don't care about the cut) and run whatever you want to build, and my understanding is that you can install binaries off-app-store with enterprise certificates. It's just a lot more tightly controlled.
- jolux 5y ago
  You can actually sideload to iOS without a developer account these days.
  - NegativeLatency 5y ago
    Not exactly and easy process though
- Jcowell 5y ago
  You don’t need to pay anything to use the Dev Tools. You need to pay to distribute on the App Store. You can develop and put on your own device.
- thebean11 5y ago
  Having to compile the software yourself (then periodically recompile when the license expires) is way too big (small?) of a hoop to jump through imo
horsawlarway 5y ago
I'm with you. Doesn't matter one whit what the actual cut is, there's absolutely no way to claim it's fair when you don't allow any competition in the space. I won't buy Apple devices because you don't own that phone, you're just renting it from Apple. They own the phone.
- paulmd 5y ago
  will you refuse to buy an Xbox because there is no competition for the Xbox store on the xbox? will you refuse to buy a Playstation because there is no competition for the Sony store on the Playstation? (Microsoft is supporting Epic as well, yet argues that their own Xbox store should not have to open up either. Maybe that would be a good place for them to start?) https://mspoweruser.com/epic-apple-app-store-xbox-playstation/ https://mspoweruser.com/epic-apple-app-store-xbox-playstatio... it's always funny how Apple is the specific target of this rage and yet nobody makes such a fuss about these platforms, despite their exclusive control of developer freedoms on their own customer base... nobody gets themselves nearly as worked into a lather about the evils of Playstation, and yet these platforms are locked down even tighter than the iphone.
  - maxsilver 5y ago
    I guess it depends on what you think an iPhone is. If you think the iPhone + iPad is basically a video game console, then yeah, you probably think Apple's rent-seeking monopoly is ok, because it's not much different than any Nintendo Switch or Sony PlayStation or similar. People generally live with those draconian restrictions, because it's understood to be subsidized by the exclusive titles, and arguably not of high importance (it plays games and media, it's "just for fun"). But if you think the iPhone + iPad is basically a computer/smartphone, then you probably think Apple's rent-seeking monopoly is evil, because it fundamentally breaks the promise those devices imply, and is wildly worse than any Google Android or Microsoft Windows device ever sold. These devices are considered "important", they get used for legal / government / business purposes, and not "just for fun". So, is the iPhone/iPad a smartphone/computer? Or is the iPhone/iPad a video game console? Apple's rocking the boat here by trying to have their cake and eat it too -- they want the sell something that is ostensibly a smartphone/computer device, but they want the monopoly control and legal treatment as if it were a video game console. > it's always funny how Apple is the specific target of this rage. nobody gets themselves nearly as worked into a lather about the evils of Playstation I mean, people really did get "worked into a lather about the evils of Playstation" too. Notably, for a hot minute, Sony positioned PlayStation 3 as a real smartphone/computer (and not just a video game console) with the release of their Linux setup, and Sony did get exactly the same heat Apple gets today when Sony restricted it, and then later killed it) https://tedium.co/2020/11/27/sony-linux-otheros-geohot-history/ https://tedium.co/2020/11/27/sony-linux-otheros-geohot-histo...
ksec 5y ago
Same here. Not exactly "not" care, in the case of unfair / anti competitive treatment. But in the grand scheme of things I am mostly fine. I have a problem with Apple dictating their World View on me. May have been fine if they were apolitical during Steve Jobs era. But modern days Silicon Valley does not allow anything to be apolitical.

I agree, if a user could check a box saying they are OK leaving Apple's walled garden they should be able to install anything they want on their device. This provides a path around the 30% cut as well. I think Apple's point is they think users are too dumb to handle that and they don't want to take any chance of user ignorance reflecting poorly on them or their product experience.

websites420 5y ago
> I think Apple's point is they think users are too dumb to handle that and they don't want user ignorance to reflect poorly on them or their product experience. And I sympathize with this argument, which is why I propose calling the outside-the-garden toggle “Developer Mode.” Apple already has “Pro” phones and headphones. This is just an extension of that. So when the user toggles the Developer mode they get a dialog box that says we can’t do refunds or offer support until you turn this off, which will delete any 3P apps.
- trdtaylor1 5y ago
  This would align well (Some in Apple may say too well) with the Right To Repair movement.
- macinjosh 5y ago
  Couldn't Epic, et. al still have an issue with this? I would see them argue that putting this behind a developer mode is still too restrictive and 'unfair.' Most user's wouldn't know what developer mode implies and Epic would have to have a list of instructions on their install page to show users how to enable it. That is not a small barrier to entry for many users. Not sure what my opinion is, just thinking out loud.
  - kevingadd 5y ago
    There are alternative App Stores for Android that put up with this, so it's at least better than nothing. If the store requests 'install app' permissions it pops up an allow/deny prompt, which isn't too user-hostile. Apple could do that. While Epic is suing Google right now, it's mostly for anti-competitive measures other than this, like threatening phone vendors to stop them from bundling Epic's store.
- macintux 5y ago
  My concern is that once Apple offers it, various companies will tell their customers they have to enable it to install their apps, and customers will do so and blame the fallout on Apple, regardless of any disclaimer.
  - taylodl 5y ago
    There's a couple of things Apple can do to dissuade companies from taking this route: 1.) Suspend the device warranty. The warranty on your device is suspended while in "Developer Mode" or whatever it is they want to call it. They can make switching over to "Developer Mode" go through various prompts to make sure you're okay with what you're doing. 2.) When launching the app that's not from the app store they can popup a warning informing you that this application was not obtained from the app store and therefore wasn't inspected by Apple. It may contain malware that dames your device or compromises your data. 3.) Periodically popup a window for a running application that wasn't obtained from the app store. If you leave the app running then maybe you get a daily reminder that the app is still running. Maybe you can get an activity report of sorts for it to - so you can see what the app has been up to. 4.) When disabling "Developer Mode" then list all the applications not obtained from the app store that will be removed from the device. Those applications will be removed when disabling "Developer Mode." I think there's a way to do this that protect's everyone's interests and allows Apple's customers to make informed choices.
  - ascagnel_ 5y ago
    The Xbox consoles have a model that could be followed here that would be interesting: > Xbox retail consoles can have two modes, Retail Mode (1) and Developer Mode (2). In Retail Mode, the console is in its normal state: you can play games and run apps acquired through the Xbox store. In Developer Mode, you can develop and test software for the console, but you cannot play retail games or run retail apps. https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/uwp/xbox-apps/devkit-activation https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/uwp/xbox-apps/devki...
    - eigen 5y ago
      step 5: Register an app developer account in Partner Center.

ridaj 5y ago

Technically I think it's possible to install whatever you want: as part of the developer program, you can pay the dev fees (which you might not care about, if you also don't care about the cut) and run whatever you want to build, and my understanding is that you can install binaries off-app-store with enterprise certificates. It's just a lot more tightly controlled.

jolux 5y ago
You can actually sideload to iOS without a developer account these days.
- NegativeLatency 5y ago
  Not exactly and easy process though
Jcowell 5y ago
You don’t need to pay anything to use the Dev Tools. You need to pay to distribute on the App Store. You can develop and put on your own device.
thebean11 5y ago
Having to compile the software yourself (then periodically recompile when the license expires) is way too big (small?) of a hoop to jump through imo

horsawlarway 5y ago

I'm with you. Doesn't matter one whit what the actual cut is, there's absolutely no way to claim it's fair when you don't allow any competition in the space. I won't buy Apple devices because you don't own that phone, you're just renting it from Apple. They own the phone.

paulmd 5y ago
will you refuse to buy an Xbox because there is no competition for the Xbox store on the xbox? will you refuse to buy a Playstation because there is no competition for the Sony store on the Playstation? (Microsoft is supporting Epic as well, yet argues that their own Xbox store should not have to open up either. Maybe that would be a good place for them to start?) https://mspoweruser.com/epic-apple-app-store-xbox-playstation/ https://mspoweruser.com/epic-apple-app-store-xbox-playstatio... it's always funny how Apple is the specific target of this rage and yet nobody makes such a fuss about these platforms, despite their exclusive control of developer freedoms on their own customer base... nobody gets themselves nearly as worked into a lather about the evils of Playstation, and yet these platforms are locked down even tighter than the iphone.
- maxsilver 5y ago
  I guess it depends on what you think an iPhone is. If you think the iPhone + iPad is basically a video game console, then yeah, you probably think Apple's rent-seeking monopoly is ok, because it's not much different than any Nintendo Switch or Sony PlayStation or similar. People generally live with those draconian restrictions, because it's understood to be subsidized by the exclusive titles, and arguably not of high importance (it plays games and media, it's "just for fun"). But if you think the iPhone + iPad is basically a computer/smartphone, then you probably think Apple's rent-seeking monopoly is evil, because it fundamentally breaks the promise those devices imply, and is wildly worse than any Google Android or Microsoft Windows device ever sold. These devices are considered "important", they get used for legal / government / business purposes, and not "just for fun". So, is the iPhone/iPad a smartphone/computer? Or is the iPhone/iPad a video game console? Apple's rocking the boat here by trying to have their cake and eat it too -- they want the sell something that is ostensibly a smartphone/computer device, but they want the monopoly control and legal treatment as if it were a video game console. > it's always funny how Apple is the specific target of this rage. nobody gets themselves nearly as worked into a lather about the evils of Playstation I mean, people really did get "worked into a lather about the evils of Playstation" too. Notably, for a hot minute, Sony positioned PlayStation 3 as a real smartphone/computer (and not just a video game console) with the release of their Linux setup, and Sony did get exactly the same heat Apple gets today when Sony restricted it, and then later killed it) https://tedium.co/2020/11/27/sony-linux-otheros-geohot-history/ https://tedium.co/2020/11/27/sony-linux-otheros-geohot-histo...

ksec 5y ago

Same here. Not exactly "not" care, in the case of unfair / anti competitive treatment. But in the grand scheme of things I am mostly fine. I have a problem with Apple dictating their World View on me. May have been fine if they were apolitical during Steve Jobs era. But modern days Silicon Valley does not allow anything to be apolitical.