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I worked my bum off for 10 years. Saw that it had no effect on my career prospects and then gave up. Wiser employees gave up way before then. I've not seen a si

I worked my bum off for 10 years. Saw that it had no effect on my career prospects and then gave up. Wiser employees gave up way before then. I've not seen a single promotion out of development in nearly 20 years in the industry. It's a simple fact at least in the UK, that one does not progress out of software development. Senior/lead developer is easy but after that there is no progression. Development manager roles are hard to come by and require growing into the role. Moving sideways into project manager or scrum master roles is generally very difficult to engineer as well. The simple fact is that engineers are seen as line workers. Line workers are not managers and are not suited to the role.

zelos 5y ago
It's not that bad is it? Lead developer puts you on a similar salary to senior doctors or lawyers, generally with a significantly less stressful work environment and shorter working hours. I've seen several developers work towards management roles, make the switch and then end up moving back to IC roles after realising the grass isn't always greener.
- apercu 5y ago
  > similar salary to senior doctors or lawyers, with a significantly less stressful work environment and shorter working hours. There's so much to unpack here. Some doctors make 400k. Some make 700k. Some make 300k. Some are stressed and work a lot of hours. Others aren't and don't. Some lawyers want to be on partner track at a big firm. They might be stressed and working a lot of hours so that they can make 400k or 500k or $1,000,000 annually. Some make $100k and don't work much, aren't stressed. Most software developers make less than $150k. Most software developers I know are stress balls until they check out and then start working 24-30 hours a week and the rest of the office time is bullshit. On the west coast of the US and in Fintech in NY some developers make 300-400k.
  - zeroonetwothree 5y ago
    Median pay for lawyers is $120k. For doctors $210k. For senior software engineer it’s $130k. In VHCOL areas those numbers are much higher of course.
plutonorm 5y ago
@zelos For someone people, yes, it really is that bad. Lack of progression is a really really big issue for certain kinds of personality. It's also a really big issue for me because I don't like software anymore - there is no challenge left in it. I am as good a coder as I can be. There's plenty to learn on the architecture side, but..... I'm just bored of it. I want to be able to focus on something else.
sharken 5y ago
For as long as I can remember, the best way to get a salary increase/promotion is to find a job in another company. You might get lucky in the current job, but odds are against you.
- casralad 5y ago
  I've been a software developer for thirty years and every pay increase has been less than 3% unless I switch companies. It's their rules. I'm just playing the game.
- daveKoala 5y ago
  I struggled getting a pay rise without changing organisation until i hear the term "technical individual contributors". A bit of a lightbulb moment for me as i didn't want to go back into people management. I now use this term to set out what i have and what i can do for the project and how that has lead to greater success/value of a product. It also highlights to management what happens if i was to leave.
- ticviking 5y ago
  This right here is the problem though. Unless you're so good that the company can't afford to pay you a fair share of the value you generate a rational firm ought to want to keep us working for them and feeling invested in their future instead of our own.
watwut 5y ago
> I've not seen a single promotion out of development in nearly 20 years in the industry. It's a simple fact at least in the UK, that one does not progress out of software development. As someone who have experienced British managers in practice, this explains a lot.
ineptech 5y ago
All of this sounds like an accurate description of the software industry, and I'm not sure why you think it's unacceptable. You worked hard to become a good developer, you progressed in your career to the point where you can do it very well, but you sound offended that the industry expects you to continue doing it? I don't think your expectations are realistic. Most peoples' salaries don't increase monotonically throughout their career, they top out around 40, the day you get your last big raise. For most people that's the day they become a senior/top/lead/etc, whether they're a chef or a welder or a doctor or whatever.
- plutonorm 5y ago
  I don't know how people cope with the boredom of such a limited career. It's like deciding as a child that you like strawberry sauce and then being forced to eat strawberry sauce for the rest of your life. It's madness.
  - ineptech 5y ago
    I mean, if you don't like programming there are other careers; but I've never heard of a successful senior dev that a) wanted to switch in to management or PM, and b) couldn't do so easily.
    - plutonorm 5y ago
      ! Then we live in completely different worlds.
      - ineptech 5y ago
        Apparently! But to be clear, the reason I don't see this is because very few senior devs opt to move in to management (even less in to PM, scrum master, etc), not because there are so many management jobs available. And the converse (a senior dev complaining, "I feel like the business keeps pushing me towards roles with more leadership/meetings and less coding") is very common IME.
riknox 5y ago
That's interestingly the opposite of what I've experienced in the UK. I suppose it depends on what type of company you work for, but in my experience those that realise they are a tech company and truly value technology make ample opportunities for their developers to move forward. My current workplace has both managers (and senior/execs) who have come from a tech career and very high level ICs.

zelos 5y ago

It's not that bad is it? Lead developer puts you on a similar salary to senior doctors or lawyers, generally with a significantly less stressful work environment and shorter working hours. I've seen several developers work towards management roles, make the switch and then end up moving back to IC roles after realising the grass isn't always greener.

apercu 5y ago
> similar salary to senior doctors or lawyers, with a significantly less stressful work environment and shorter working hours. There's so much to unpack here. Some doctors make 400k. Some make 700k. Some make 300k. Some are stressed and work a lot of hours. Others aren't and don't. Some lawyers want to be on partner track at a big firm. They might be stressed and working a lot of hours so that they can make 400k or 500k or $1,000,000 annually. Some make $100k and don't work much, aren't stressed. Most software developers make less than $150k. Most software developers I know are stress balls until they check out and then start working 24-30 hours a week and the rest of the office time is bullshit. On the west coast of the US and in Fintech in NY some developers make 300-400k.
- zeroonetwothree 5y ago
  Median pay for lawyers is $120k. For doctors $210k. For senior software engineer it’s $130k. In VHCOL areas those numbers are much higher of course.

plutonorm 5y ago

@zelos For someone people, yes, it really is that bad. Lack of progression is a really really big issue for certain kinds of personality. It's also a really big issue for me because I don't like software anymore - there is no challenge left in it. I am as good a coder as I can be. There's plenty to learn on the architecture side, but..... I'm just bored of it. I want to be able to focus on something else.

sharken 5y ago

For as long as I can remember, the best way to get a salary increase/promotion is to find a job in another company. You might get lucky in the current job, but odds are against you.

casralad 5y ago
I've been a software developer for thirty years and every pay increase has been less than 3% unless I switch companies. It's their rules. I'm just playing the game.
daveKoala 5y ago
I struggled getting a pay rise without changing organisation until i hear the term "technical individual contributors". A bit of a lightbulb moment for me as i didn't want to go back into people management. I now use this term to set out what i have and what i can do for the project and how that has lead to greater success/value of a product. It also highlights to management what happens if i was to leave.
ticviking 5y ago
This right here is the problem though. Unless you're so good that the company can't afford to pay you a fair share of the value you generate a rational firm ought to want to keep us working for them and feeling invested in their future instead of our own.

watwut 5y ago

> I've not seen a single promotion out of development in nearly 20 years in the industry. It's a simple fact at least in the UK, that one does not progress out of software development. As someone who have experienced British managers in practice, this explains a lot.

ineptech 5y ago

All of this sounds like an accurate description of the software industry, and I'm not sure why you think it's unacceptable. You worked hard to become a good developer, you progressed in your career to the point where you can do it very well, but you sound offended that the industry expects you to continue doing it? I don't think your expectations are realistic. Most peoples' salaries don't increase monotonically throughout their career, they top out around 40, the day you get your last big raise. For most people that's the day they become a senior/top/lead/etc, whether they're a chef or a welder or a doctor or whatever.

plutonorm 5y ago
I don't know how people cope with the boredom of such a limited career. It's like deciding as a child that you like strawberry sauce and then being forced to eat strawberry sauce for the rest of your life. It's madness.
- ineptech 5y ago
  I mean, if you don't like programming there are other careers; but I've never heard of a successful senior dev that a) wanted to switch in to management or PM, and b) couldn't do so easily.
  - plutonorm 5y ago
    ! Then we live in completely different worlds.
    - ineptech 5y ago
      Apparently! But to be clear, the reason I don't see this is because very few senior devs opt to move in to management (even less in to PM, scrum master, etc), not because there are so many management jobs available. And the converse (a senior dev complaining, "I feel like the business keeps pushing me towards roles with more leadership/meetings and less coding") is very common IME.

riknox 5y ago

That's interestingly the opposite of what I've experienced in the UK. I suppose it depends on what type of company you work for, but in my experience those that realise they are a tech company and truly value technology make ample opportunities for their developers to move forward. My current workplace has both managers (and senior/execs) who have come from a tech career and very high level ICs.