5 ms·

They did privitise the risk too. After the failure of the east coast franchise recently, the government bailled out virgin, but that's not the fault of the syst

They did privitise the risk too. After the failure of the east coast franchise recently, the government bailled out virgin, but that's not the fault of the system. If I want to travel from Birmingham to London I have a choice of 3 different train companies, as well as a coach company and driving (either hiring a car with or without driver, or using my own car). That's tons of competition, and it shows given the choice.

varispeed 5y ago
I lived on a Southern line and alternative was Thameslink with uncomfortable trains (crammed seats, no tables for coffee or anything - at least they were running mostly empty as nobody wanted such discomfort). Trains always late, I almost lost my job because of that. I had to get a car and drive 100 miles each day because train journeys were not sustainable. Has anything happened to Southern? I doubt.
- flarg 5y ago
  Southern was a government funded battle with the trade unions
  - iso1631 5y ago
    And both Southern and Thameslink are run by the government (via a management contract to GTR), have been since 2014. Southern is the reality of modern railway nationalisation, a little better than BR perhaps.
- iso1631 5y ago
  Why didn't you use Southern? When are you talking about? There was a lot of investment in the (laughably named) Thameslink 2000 program, which was put in place to dig the route out of the mess that the nationalised rail network had left it in by the 90s, it started in 2009 and is still undergoing improvements
  - varispeed 5y ago
    Because the trains were not showing up. If a train showed up, there was likelihood of a delay. It was also common that rush hour trains were short - so even if the train arrived, you were unlikely to be able to get in. It was a lottery with odds against you. I was constantly late because of that and employer could only be patient for so long. I am disabled (not visibly) and using Thameslink as an alternative was exhausting (as mentioned - small seats, very uncomfortable). If I recall also Thameslink had much slower service than Southern. I hate driving, so imagine how bad it was if I found eventually going by a car was much better experience for me.
    - iso1631 5y ago
      So Southern wasn't turning up and Thameslink was poor? When was it?
      - varispeed 5y ago
        2017 onwards e.g. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-42707560 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-42707560
        iso1631 5y ago
        So after it was nationalized. Southern and Thameslink are the same company. You suffered from the political decision that the government made to get rid of guards. No company would take it as a franchise because they knew the fight with the union would impact both profits and users, so they got GTR to operate it under a management basis. This is now what is happening to every other TOC.
andrepd 5y ago
>If I want to travel from Birmingham to London I have a choice of 3 different train companies Great, now talk about literally any other line in Britain
- signal11 5y ago
  London to Birmingham is an exception because you have three train companies but also two separate sets of tracks -- the West Coast Main Line (WCML) and the Chiltern Line. This builds a lot of resilience into the system. I wish other lines had this as well. That said, the WCML is extremely well run relative to the horrow shows in S and SE England. If you live along the WCML (think Bucks, Coventry, etc), you have two providers: Avanti (formerly Virgin) and London Northwestern/West Midland (formerly Midland). You actually have Southern as well, but they are... not a credible provider. HS2, if it's ever done, will further reduce pressure on the WCML and increase resilience. But on the other hand, go up North and there used to be trains which are modified bus bodies[1]. Are those still there? So yes, absolutely, the rail network does need to improve across the country. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacer_(British_Rail) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacer_(British_Rail)
  - iso1631 5y ago
    Go up North and you have Northern, which as well as running pacers for years (I think they're all gone now) drained funds, because running a rail network with few passengers is expensive. That means either higher tax to subsidise it, or it means higher prices on profitable parts of the network to cross-subsidise it
- iso1631 5y ago
  Alternate routes with competitors London-Edinburgh (West coast vs east coast. West Coast is slower but cheaper) Bristol-Manchester (XC via Birmingham vs ATW via Hereford - I usually take the slower cheaper Wales train as I prefer the route and the seating) Manchester-Norwich (via Sheffield-Peterborough, Via London, Via Leeds-Doncaster) London-Reading (GWML from Paddington vs South West from Waterloo) Exeter-London (Paddington via Westbury on GWR vs Waterloo via Salisbury on SWT) Manchester-Warrington (ATW via Newton, EMT via Birchwood) London-Hastings (via Tunbridge Wells or via Haywards Heath) And different competitors on the same track Milton Keynes - London (West Coast, London Midland, Southern) York - Newcastle (TPE, LNER, XC) Manchester-Glasgow (Northern+WestCoast, TPE) Stoke-Manchester (Northern vs XC vs West Coast)
secretsatan 5y ago
I just don't think that's how rail should work, I'm not booking a flight to go to another country, I should be able to turn up to a train station and get on a bloody train.
- iso1631 5y ago
  That's certainly how I use the rail network (and often the plane network - I've booked a flight from Europe to the far east with just a few hours notice on more than one occasion), and you can do that (unlike in europe where you have to book long distance trains in advance in many countries). I don't see the conceptual difference between going London - Paris or London - Edinburgh though?
- teachingassist 5y ago
  This does work in many other European countries, but there simply isn't enough rail capacity for this in the UK. Turn up to any mainline station during peak hours and you can observe this for yourself (also non-peak hours in many cases). Trains which require reservation have scarcely any standing room. Other countries would be quick to complain if you don't get the seat that you paid for.
permo-w 5y ago
out of all those options, it may even be cheaper to fly
- iso1631 5y ago
  The lack of accounting for externalities with flights may make it cheaper, but there aren't any flights from London to Birmingham, and even if they were they'd be far slower than getting any of the train options, and probably slower than the coach.

varispeed 5y ago

I lived on a Southern line and alternative was Thameslink with uncomfortable trains (crammed seats, no tables for coffee or anything - at least they were running mostly empty as nobody wanted such discomfort). Trains always late, I almost lost my job because of that. I had to get a car and drive 100 miles each day because train journeys were not sustainable. Has anything happened to Southern? I doubt.

flarg 5y ago
Southern was a government funded battle with the trade unions
- iso1631 5y ago
  And both Southern and Thameslink are run by the government (via a management contract to GTR), have been since 2014. Southern is the reality of modern railway nationalisation, a little better than BR perhaps.
iso1631 5y ago
Why didn't you use Southern? When are you talking about? There was a lot of investment in the (laughably named) Thameslink 2000 program, which was put in place to dig the route out of the mess that the nationalised rail network had left it in by the 90s, it started in 2009 and is still undergoing improvements
- varispeed 5y ago
  Because the trains were not showing up. If a train showed up, there was likelihood of a delay. It was also common that rush hour trains were short - so even if the train arrived, you were unlikely to be able to get in. It was a lottery with odds against you. I was constantly late because of that and employer could only be patient for so long. I am disabled (not visibly) and using Thameslink as an alternative was exhausting (as mentioned - small seats, very uncomfortable). If I recall also Thameslink had much slower service than Southern. I hate driving, so imagine how bad it was if I found eventually going by a car was much better experience for me.
  - iso1631 5y ago
    So Southern wasn't turning up and Thameslink was poor? When was it?
    - varispeed 5y ago
      2017 onwards e.g. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-42707560 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-42707560
      - iso1631 5y ago
        So after it was nationalized. Southern and Thameslink are the same company. You suffered from the political decision that the government made to get rid of guards. No company would take it as a franchise because they knew the fight with the union would impact both profits and users, so they got GTR to operate it under a management basis. This is now what is happening to every other TOC.

andrepd 5y ago

>If I want to travel from Birmingham to London I have a choice of 3 different train companies Great, now talk about literally any other line in Britain

signal11 5y ago
London to Birmingham is an exception because you have three train companies but also two separate sets of tracks -- the West Coast Main Line (WCML) and the Chiltern Line. This builds a lot of resilience into the system. I wish other lines had this as well. That said, the WCML is extremely well run relative to the horrow shows in S and SE England. If you live along the WCML (think Bucks, Coventry, etc), you have two providers: Avanti (formerly Virgin) and London Northwestern/West Midland (formerly Midland). You actually have Southern as well, but they are... not a credible provider. HS2, if it's ever done, will further reduce pressure on the WCML and increase resilience. But on the other hand, go up North and there used to be trains which are modified bus bodies[1]. Are those still there? So yes, absolutely, the rail network does need to improve across the country. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacer_(British_Rail) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacer_(British_Rail)
- iso1631 5y ago
  Go up North and you have Northern, which as well as running pacers for years (I think they're all gone now) drained funds, because running a rail network with few passengers is expensive. That means either higher tax to subsidise it, or it means higher prices on profitable parts of the network to cross-subsidise it
iso1631 5y ago
Alternate routes with competitors London-Edinburgh (West coast vs east coast. West Coast is slower but cheaper) Bristol-Manchester (XC via Birmingham vs ATW via Hereford - I usually take the slower cheaper Wales train as I prefer the route and the seating) Manchester-Norwich (via Sheffield-Peterborough, Via London, Via Leeds-Doncaster) London-Reading (GWML from Paddington vs South West from Waterloo) Exeter-London (Paddington via Westbury on GWR vs Waterloo via Salisbury on SWT) Manchester-Warrington (ATW via Newton, EMT via Birchwood) London-Hastings (via Tunbridge Wells or via Haywards Heath) And different competitors on the same track Milton Keynes - London (West Coast, London Midland, Southern) York - Newcastle (TPE, LNER, XC) Manchester-Glasgow (Northern+WestCoast, TPE) Stoke-Manchester (Northern vs XC vs West Coast)

secretsatan 5y ago

I just don't think that's how rail should work, I'm not booking a flight to go to another country, I should be able to turn up to a train station and get on a bloody train.

iso1631 5y ago
That's certainly how I use the rail network (and often the plane network - I've booked a flight from Europe to the far east with just a few hours notice on more than one occasion), and you can do that (unlike in europe where you have to book long distance trains in advance in many countries). I don't see the conceptual difference between going London - Paris or London - Edinburgh though?
teachingassist 5y ago
This does work in many other European countries, but there simply isn't enough rail capacity for this in the UK. Turn up to any mainline station during peak hours and you can observe this for yourself (also non-peak hours in many cases). Trains which require reservation have scarcely any standing room. Other countries would be quick to complain if you don't get the seat that you paid for.

permo-w 5y ago

out of all those options, it may even be cheaper to fly

iso1631 5y ago
The lack of accounting for externalities with flights may make it cheaper, but there aren't any flights from London to Birmingham, and even if they were they'd be far slower than getting any of the train options, and probably slower than the coach.