8 ms·

Marriott Files Lawsuit Against Unknown Robocalls Perpetrators

51 points by iou 5y ago

maxk42 5y ago
I am so sick of those calls! Go get 'em, Mariott!
dcist 5y ago
Nice! Good to see a company being proactive about this nonsense.
- ThrustVectoring 5y ago
  It's a pure PR stunt unless they have a concrete plan for what they're subpoenaing the telecom companies for.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
lyime 5y ago
Can one trace where a call originates from?
- rhizome 5y ago
  The phone companies know, but they won't tell you without a court order.
  - imgabe 5y ago
    This is a good thing. Companies should not release user data without a court order.
    - unishark 5y ago
      ...or consent. Seems like Marriott should get a say in the tracing of calls from people claiming to represent Marriott.
    - rhizome 5y ago
      They (or whoever is transiting their lines) know the account number of the entity that pays for the line that the robocalls are originating from. If the phone company made it possible for end users to block numbers based on who is funding the calls I think they would go away fairly completely.
  - judge2020 5y ago
    Even with this, it’s probably not going to be of much use when they all turn up from countries with a low standard of living (in terms of USD payment per month). I doubt Marriott would spend the resources suing some company across the world.
    - viraptor 5y ago
      If the government cares enough there's still a way to deal with that. Telcos could be forced not forward spam calls and allowed to not accept connections from known spam sources. Then the foreign telcos would have to choose between cleaning up their act or not being able to route calls to the US anymore. Technically that's easy to implement on peering level. But international routing is still relatively expensive. In most cases your "international" incoming call is just a local one with spoofed source.
    - ThrustVectoring 5y ago
      or someone whose story is "idk someone on craigslist paid me $300 to set up a business phone account". They'd want these anyways to ensure that they retain access in case of the network actually shutting them out.
- ThrustVectoring 5y ago
  Sure, but that doesn't necessarily do all that much to stem the tide. The spam callers care a hell of a lot more about maintaining access and call volume than the telcos care about ensuring spammers stay off the system; if they don't have multiple redundant systems run by facially independent cut-outs, they're organizationally incompetent. Like, employing someone to hire people off craigslist to help "set up their new business" by opening an outbound phone account under the craigslister's name is cheap compared to the gains from running the spam network.
- rasz 5y ago
  "We traced the call. It's coming from inside the house!" Telcos make a bank facilitating the spammers.
- maxk42 5y ago
  Yes and no. The problem is that if you make a call from AT&T then AT&T knows you made the call. But AT&T also has to treat calls from other carriers - including carriers from other countries - as valid phone calls, without knowing if the information provided by the other carrier is accurate. Most of these spam factories are based offshore in countries with lax regulations. Others use legitimate services like Twilio to launder their calls so you have to subpoena their carrier, then subpoena Twilio only to find out that the call is coming from a country or jurisdiction where what they're doing isn't illegal. It's a slow and painful process to track these scammers down.
nefitty 5y ago
According to the stats mentioned, robocalls are almost doubling every quarter. What is the technology that empowers this?
- lighthazard 5y ago
  VOIP
- nexuist 5y ago
  It's not really technology so much as investment; i.e. the initial wave of robocalls generate enough income that scam operators can afford to invest in more call centers, phone numbers, infrastructure, etc. Just like a real sales division in a real sales company would.
  - spicybright 5y ago
    Everything is a numbers game. Taking revenue from phone companies allowing this to happen is the only way to squash it.
    - nexuist 5y ago
      Phone companies at least in the US are taking initiatives to screen spam callers, but there is only so much you can do when there are untrusted actors on the network. Truly ending robocalls would require a global treaty encompassing both hemispheres, and probably the creation of some new UN agency responsible for registering network endpoints (like ICANN). As it stands you can just move to another country that lets you hook up to their infrastructure if you are ever kicked out of your current base of operations. Given that there are still countries where you can e.g. host content that is illegal in the US or other countries, it seems unlikely such a treaty would ever make it into international law.
      - andypea 5y ago
        Spam calls are simply not a problem in many countries outside the USA, so it must be possible to tackle the problem without a global treaty.
tolbish 5y ago
Google Fi has a setting where you can have all unknown incoming calls screened by default. I wonder if that can be mandated across all telecoms.
- dheera 5y ago
  I just block all calls that aren't pre-scheduled on my Google calendar and use Twilio to filter them. Whitelist for SO/parents only. It's not even about screening, I want anyone calling to make an appointment and not just interrupt whatever I'm doing.
  - eloff 5y ago
    Take my money. No seriously, make it a product I can pay for.
    - zbrozek 5y ago
      I just leave my phone on mute and never answer it.
- pjerem 5y ago
  Any phone have this option. At least my iPhone have it. I’m pretty sure Android have it too. If it’s not from a known contact, it’s probably not urgent and they can leave a message.
  - Ansil849 5y ago
    > If it’s not from a known contact, it’s probably not urgent and they can leave a message. Debt collectors, doctors' receptionists, local police departments...all of these can be relatively urgent calls and will likely not be known contacts.
    - pjerem 5y ago
      Well, I don’t see how is this a different situation than just putting your phone in silent mode or leaving it somewhere in your house (while it’s charging). This feature is not blocking calls, it just disable ringing / vibrating. You get the notification of a missed call. Nobody can expect you to be available at any time, even police officers. If they really need to speak to you now, they’ll come at you.
mkoryak 5y ago
Great! Is this going to work any better then me asking the robocallers to put me on their do-no-call list?
user3939382 5y ago
I have a very important comment on this that I need everyone to read: your car insurance is expiring and needs to be renewed.
- bmlzootown 5y ago
  Wait, but the voicemail you left said it was my warranty, not my insurance... Which is it?!
sen 5y ago
I get 3-6 spam calls a day these days. It has increased from 0-2 a day last year, and 1-2 a week before that. It’s getting to the point where I dread my phone ringing. I can’t ignore unknown numbers because I’m getting ongoing medical treatment from half a dozen different specialists who all call from unknown numbers, and also have kids so can regularly get calls relating to their schooling etc from unknown numbers. The more recent calls (last 6 months) have also started spoofing local area codes with valid numbers, whereas before this they always came through either as unknown or an international number which were at least a clearer sign that it’s “possibly” a spam call. It’s infuriating. Something needs to change.
- oceanghost 5y ago
  I strongly suspect that once you answer a few spam calls, or a few calls where they hang up immediately (this has to be some sort of probe)-- you end up with many more spam calls. My personal cell, I do not answer voice calls unless I know your number-- I get one or two calls a week. My house phone however-- much like you a family member had a medical issue-- and we had to start answering the phone. Over the course of a week the number of spam calls went from 3-4 a day to 12ish a day. After the medical issue was settled, we stopped answering random calls, and within a few weeks the number of calls settled back down to a few a day.
  - jjav 5y ago
    > I strongly suspect that once you answer a few spam calls, or a few calls where they hang up immediately (this has to be some sort of probe)-- you end up with many more spam calls. I think it's more luck of the draw on which lists the phone# is. I have an old cell phone (had since ~2006) which gets no spam at all! I have a new cell phone number which is relentless, easy double digits spam per day every day. And I've never answered any call on that phone except from known family member numbers. The house landline gets maybe 1 per week or so. Probably less.
- unishark 5y ago
  My cell phone number is in a neighboring area code I have never lived in and don't know anyone in, so I automatically know those are spam (or rare wrong numbers). Spoofed local area codes have definitely been coming in for a lot longer than 6 months for me.
Animats 5y ago
Marriott is looking ahead. The STIR/SHAKEN system for tracing robocalls is going live by June 30, 2021.[1] It's like TLS certs for phone companies. Voice call source spoofing is about to get much harder. A few robocall companies have already been caught. Marriot is filing a case which will allow them to subpoena the data which tells them who to sue. [1] https://www.fcc.gov/TRACEDAct https://www.fcc.gov/TRACEDAct
- snoshy 5y ago
  Great observation. It's frankly sad that it took this many years to implement such a common sense system, even though it comes with it's own flaws. I highly doubt it's gonna do anything for call systems in general though. They've burned enough faith to last a long time.
- devwastaken 5y ago
  Does this apply to out of country calls from call centers and online services that provide number blocks that are commonly for cell phones?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
enveu 5y ago
This is insane
phire 5y ago
I'm curious how well this will work from a legal perspective. I assume the lawsuit will allow them to do discovery with various 3rd parties to try and identify the perpetrators.

51 points by iou 5y ago

maxk42 5y ago

I am so sick of those calls! Go get 'em, Mariott!

dcist 5y ago

Nice! Good to see a company being proactive about this nonsense.

ThrustVectoring 5y ago
It's a pure PR stunt unless they have a concrete plan for what they're subpoenaing the telecom companies for.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

lyime 5y ago

Can one trace where a call originates from?

rhizome 5y ago
The phone companies know, but they won't tell you without a court order.
- imgabe 5y ago
  This is a good thing. Companies should not release user data without a court order.
  - unishark 5y ago
    ...or consent. Seems like Marriott should get a say in the tracing of calls from people claiming to represent Marriott.
  - rhizome 5y ago
    They (or whoever is transiting their lines) know the account number of the entity that pays for the line that the robocalls are originating from. If the phone company made it possible for end users to block numbers based on who is funding the calls I think they would go away fairly completely.
- judge2020 5y ago
  Even with this, it’s probably not going to be of much use when they all turn up from countries with a low standard of living (in terms of USD payment per month). I doubt Marriott would spend the resources suing some company across the world.
  - viraptor 5y ago
    If the government cares enough there's still a way to deal with that. Telcos could be forced not forward spam calls and allowed to not accept connections from known spam sources. Then the foreign telcos would have to choose between cleaning up their act or not being able to route calls to the US anymore. Technically that's easy to implement on peering level. But international routing is still relatively expensive. In most cases your "international" incoming call is just a local one with spoofed source.
  - ThrustVectoring 5y ago
    or someone whose story is "idk someone on craigslist paid me $300 to set up a business phone account". They'd want these anyways to ensure that they retain access in case of the network actually shutting them out.
ThrustVectoring 5y ago
Sure, but that doesn't necessarily do all that much to stem the tide. The spam callers care a hell of a lot more about maintaining access and call volume than the telcos care about ensuring spammers stay off the system; if they don't have multiple redundant systems run by facially independent cut-outs, they're organizationally incompetent. Like, employing someone to hire people off craigslist to help "set up their new business" by opening an outbound phone account under the craigslister's name is cheap compared to the gains from running the spam network.
rasz 5y ago
"We traced the call. It's coming from inside the house!" Telcos make a bank facilitating the spammers.
maxk42 5y ago
Yes and no. The problem is that if you make a call from AT&T then AT&T knows you made the call. But AT&T also has to treat calls from other carriers - including carriers from other countries - as valid phone calls, without knowing if the information provided by the other carrier is accurate. Most of these spam factories are based offshore in countries with lax regulations. Others use legitimate services like Twilio to launder their calls so you have to subpoena their carrier, then subpoena Twilio only to find out that the call is coming from a country or jurisdiction where what they're doing isn't illegal. It's a slow and painful process to track these scammers down.

nefitty 5y ago

According to the stats mentioned, robocalls are almost doubling every quarter. What is the technology that empowers this?

lighthazard 5y ago
VOIP
nexuist 5y ago
It's not really technology so much as investment; i.e. the initial wave of robocalls generate enough income that scam operators can afford to invest in more call centers, phone numbers, infrastructure, etc. Just like a real sales division in a real sales company would.
- spicybright 5y ago
  Everything is a numbers game. Taking revenue from phone companies allowing this to happen is the only way to squash it.
  - nexuist 5y ago
    Phone companies at least in the US are taking initiatives to screen spam callers, but there is only so much you can do when there are untrusted actors on the network. Truly ending robocalls would require a global treaty encompassing both hemispheres, and probably the creation of some new UN agency responsible for registering network endpoints (like ICANN). As it stands you can just move to another country that lets you hook up to their infrastructure if you are ever kicked out of your current base of operations. Given that there are still countries where you can e.g. host content that is illegal in the US or other countries, it seems unlikely such a treaty would ever make it into international law.
    - andypea 5y ago
      Spam calls are simply not a problem in many countries outside the USA, so it must be possible to tackle the problem without a global treaty.

tolbish 5y ago

Google Fi has a setting where you can have all unknown incoming calls screened by default. I wonder if that can be mandated across all telecoms.

dheera 5y ago
I just block all calls that aren't pre-scheduled on my Google calendar and use Twilio to filter them. Whitelist for SO/parents only. It's not even about screening, I want anyone calling to make an appointment and not just interrupt whatever I'm doing.
- eloff 5y ago
  Take my money. No seriously, make it a product I can pay for.
  - zbrozek 5y ago
    I just leave my phone on mute and never answer it.
pjerem 5y ago
Any phone have this option. At least my iPhone have it. I’m pretty sure Android have it too. If it’s not from a known contact, it’s probably not urgent and they can leave a message.
- Ansil849 5y ago
  > If it’s not from a known contact, it’s probably not urgent and they can leave a message. Debt collectors, doctors' receptionists, local police departments...all of these can be relatively urgent calls and will likely not be known contacts.
  - pjerem 5y ago
    Well, I don’t see how is this a different situation than just putting your phone in silent mode or leaving it somewhere in your house (while it’s charging). This feature is not blocking calls, it just disable ringing / vibrating. You get the notification of a missed call. Nobody can expect you to be available at any time, even police officers. If they really need to speak to you now, they’ll come at you.

mkoryak 5y ago

Great! Is this going to work any better then me asking the robocallers to put me on their do-no-call list?

user3939382 5y ago

I have a very important comment on this that I need everyone to read: your car insurance is expiring and needs to be renewed.

bmlzootown 5y ago
Wait, but the voicemail you left said it was my warranty, not my insurance... Which is it?!

sen 5y ago

I get 3-6 spam calls a day these days. It has increased from 0-2 a day last year, and 1-2 a week before that. It’s getting to the point where I dread my phone ringing. I can’t ignore unknown numbers because I’m getting ongoing medical treatment from half a dozen different specialists who all call from unknown numbers, and also have kids so can regularly get calls relating to their schooling etc from unknown numbers. The more recent calls (last 6 months) have also started spoofing local area codes with valid numbers, whereas before this they always came through either as unknown or an international number which were at least a clearer sign that it’s “possibly” a spam call. It’s infuriating. Something needs to change.

oceanghost 5y ago
I strongly suspect that once you answer a few spam calls, or a few calls where they hang up immediately (this has to be some sort of probe)-- you end up with many more spam calls. My personal cell, I do not answer voice calls unless I know your number-- I get one or two calls a week. My house phone however-- much like you a family member had a medical issue-- and we had to start answering the phone. Over the course of a week the number of spam calls went from 3-4 a day to 12ish a day. After the medical issue was settled, we stopped answering random calls, and within a few weeks the number of calls settled back down to a few a day.
- jjav 5y ago
  > I strongly suspect that once you answer a few spam calls, or a few calls where they hang up immediately (this has to be some sort of probe)-- you end up with many more spam calls. I think it's more luck of the draw on which lists the phone# is. I have an old cell phone (had since ~2006) which gets no spam at all! I have a new cell phone number which is relentless, easy double digits spam per day every day. And I've never answered any call on that phone except from known family member numbers. The house landline gets maybe 1 per week or so. Probably less.
unishark 5y ago
My cell phone number is in a neighboring area code I have never lived in and don't know anyone in, so I automatically know those are spam (or rare wrong numbers). Spoofed local area codes have definitely been coming in for a lot longer than 6 months for me.

Animats 5y ago

Marriott is looking ahead. The STIR/SHAKEN system for tracing robocalls is going live by June 30, 2021.[1] It's like TLS certs for phone companies. Voice call source spoofing is about to get much harder. A few robocall companies have already been caught. Marriot is filing a case which will allow them to subpoena the data which tells them who to sue. [1] https://www.fcc.gov/TRACEDAct https://www.fcc.gov/TRACEDAct

snoshy 5y ago
Great observation. It's frankly sad that it took this many years to implement such a common sense system, even though it comes with it's own flaws. I highly doubt it's gonna do anything for call systems in general though. They've burned enough faith to last a long time.
devwastaken 5y ago
Does this apply to out of country calls from call centers and online services that provide number blocks that are commonly for cell phones?
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

enveu 5y ago

This is insane

phire 5y ago

I'm curious how well this will work from a legal perspective. I assume the lawsuit will allow them to do discovery with various 3rd parties to try and identify the perpetrators.