4 ms·

Even though the Black Lotus value is mostly as a collector's item, in game, it has the advantage of being extremely versatile. As someone said, all decks are be

by GuB-42 5y ago

Even though the Black Lotus value is mostly as a collector's item, in game, it has the advantage of being extremely versatile. As someone said, all decks are better with a Black Lotus. It is the most expensive because everyone wants it in their deck, no exception, and more than a one if it wasn't restricted (initially, it wasn't). Ancestral Recall may be more powerful but it requires blue mana, which may be an issue in a non-blue deck, of course you can use a Black Lotus for that...

thaumasiotes 5y ago
> As someone said, all decks are better with a Black Lotus. It is the most expensive because everyone wants it in their deck, no exception, and more than a one if it wasn't restricted (initially, it wasn't). > Ancestral Recall may be more powerful but it requires blue mana, which may be an issue in a non-blue deck, of course you can use a Black Lotus for that... It's true that everyone wants it with no exceptions. That's not good enough to make it the most expensive card, though; that's due to prestige. If you look at the decklists for a recent Vintage event (here: https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/vintage-challenge-2021-05-17#decklists https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings... ), you can see the top 16 decks play 16 Black Lotuses, just 11 Ancestral Recalls... and 16 Mishra's Workshops, which accounts for 80% of the decks that aren't playing Ancestral Recall. There's no such thing as a "non-blue deck" in Vintage. Even the Mishra's Workshop decks can easily generate blue mana. (The Bazaar of Baghdad deck in 15th place can't, but its whole strategy revolves around not needing to generate mana at all.)
- YeGoblynQueenne 5y ago
  You mean the noprops deck? Curious - I can't make head or tails of it. Can you explain its plan?
  - thaumasiotes 5y ago
    I haven't played with or against the deck. So this is a purely theoretical discussion that is likely to miss something important. But here goes: - The deck's plan is to attack for damage. It will do this by getting creatures onto the field without paying for them. - There are 9 cards in the deck which require mana to play: the 4 Deathrite Shamans, the 4 Sticher's Suppliers, and the 1 Swords to Plowshares. The Shamans can produce mana and the Suppliers serve the important role of getting cards into the graveyard. But mostly, this deck seeks to avoid playing mana-producing lands, and therefore also won't play cards that cost mana. - Bazaar of Baghdad is the center of the deck; every turn it will allow you to draw two cards (good!) and also discard three cards (great!) - After that, it's just a matter of getting creatures into play. Basking Rootwalla can be played for free whenever you discard it. (Which you can do via the Bazaar.) Bloodghast will come out of your graveyard whenever you play a land. Hollow One can be played for free as long as you've discarded 3 cards. (Luckily, that's the exact amount of discarding provided by the Bazaar.) Hogaak can be played out of your graveyard as long as you have two creatures already in play. And Vengevine, which is probably most of the damage, will come out of your graveyard whenever you play a second creature in one turn. (You have to play them, so Bloodghast won't count, but Basking Rootwalla, Hollow One, and Hogaak all will. If you can play a Deathrite Shaman or a Stitcher's Supplier, those will count too, but this is not a necessary part of the plan.) - Vengevine has haste, so whenever you do manage to get one out, it can attack immediately. It has been the core threat of various decks in the past. - If you can get 3 Bloodghasts and 2 Hogaaks into your graveyard, you can recur all of your Vengevines just by playing a land. This deck has a tremendous capacity to bounce back from creature removal. (Graveyard removal will hurt more.)
    - YeGoblynQueenne 5y ago
      Thanks! You know, now that you say it, it seems obvious especially given the Vengevine, but I tought Vintage was too fast for decks that win by attacking with creatures to compete, so I thought there was some hidden interaction I couldn't see.

by GuB-42 5y ago

thaumasiotes 5y ago

> As someone said, all decks are better with a Black Lotus. It is the most expensive because everyone wants it in their deck, no exception, and more than a one if it wasn't restricted (initially, it wasn't). > Ancestral Recall may be more powerful but it requires blue mana, which may be an issue in a non-blue deck, of course you can use a Black Lotus for that... It's true that everyone wants it with no exceptions. That's not good enough to make it the most expensive card, though; that's due to prestige. If you look at the decklists for a recent Vintage event (here: https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/vintage-challenge-2021-05-17#decklists https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings... ), you can see the top 16 decks play 16 Black Lotuses, just 11 Ancestral Recalls... and 16 Mishra's Workshops, which accounts for 80% of the decks that aren't playing Ancestral Recall. There's no such thing as a "non-blue deck" in Vintage. Even the Mishra's Workshop decks can easily generate blue mana. (The Bazaar of Baghdad deck in 15th place can't, but its whole strategy revolves around not needing to generate mana at all.)

YeGoblynQueenne 5y ago
You mean the noprops deck? Curious - I can't make head or tails of it. Can you explain its plan?
- thaumasiotes 5y ago
  I haven't played with or against the deck. So this is a purely theoretical discussion that is likely to miss something important. But here goes: - The deck's plan is to attack for damage. It will do this by getting creatures onto the field without paying for them. - There are 9 cards in the deck which require mana to play: the 4 Deathrite Shamans, the 4 Sticher's Suppliers, and the 1 Swords to Plowshares. The Shamans can produce mana and the Suppliers serve the important role of getting cards into the graveyard. But mostly, this deck seeks to avoid playing mana-producing lands, and therefore also won't play cards that cost mana. - Bazaar of Baghdad is the center of the deck; every turn it will allow you to draw two cards (good!) and also discard three cards (great!) - After that, it's just a matter of getting creatures into play. Basking Rootwalla can be played for free whenever you discard it. (Which you can do via the Bazaar.) Bloodghast will come out of your graveyard whenever you play a land. Hollow One can be played for free as long as you've discarded 3 cards. (Luckily, that's the exact amount of discarding provided by the Bazaar.) Hogaak can be played out of your graveyard as long as you have two creatures already in play. And Vengevine, which is probably most of the damage, will come out of your graveyard whenever you play a second creature in one turn. (You have to play them, so Bloodghast won't count, but Basking Rootwalla, Hollow One, and Hogaak all will. If you can play a Deathrite Shaman or a Stitcher's Supplier, those will count too, but this is not a necessary part of the plan.) - Vengevine has haste, so whenever you do manage to get one out, it can attack immediately. It has been the core threat of various decks in the past. - If you can get 3 Bloodghasts and 2 Hogaaks into your graveyard, you can recur all of your Vengevines just by playing a land. This deck has a tremendous capacity to bounce back from creature removal. (Graveyard removal will hurt more.)
  - YeGoblynQueenne 5y ago
    Thanks! You know, now that you say it, it seems obvious especially given the Vengevine, but I tought Vintage was too fast for decks that win by attacking with creatures to compete, so I thought there was some hidden interaction I couldn't see.