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I can't speak to the Afghanistan example, but I can see some advantages to a land registry on a blockchain, with the ensuing difficulties as well. For example,

I can't speak to the Afghanistan example, but I can see some advantages to a land registry on a blockchain, with the ensuing difficulties as well. For example, one of the places that had toyed with the idea of a blockchain land registry was the state of Andhra Pradesh in India: https://www.ledgerinsights.com/indian-blockchain-land-records-registry-andhra-pradesh/ https://www.ledgerinsights.com/indian-blockchain-land-record... As an illustrative example of the issues with the land registry in the region, a friend of mine wanted to settle some land he'd inherited in his village. He had the deed to several parcels of land owned by the family (registered in his deceased father's name, as the head of the family) in his possession, but it turned out an uncle who lived in the village had 'sold' possession of some parcels of land to somebody else. It took several trips (and bribes) to the district office to even be able to view the land records for the land - which had indeed been modified. Sure, with a legal battle he could have gotten it back, but it would take decades. How might the blockchain help here? Prevent modification of the land records without the express wishes of the deed holder. Court cases involving land are severely backlogged in India, on the scale of decades. I also agree that the blockchain would also create additional problems & burdens.

dmitriid 5y ago
> I can't speak to the Afghanistan example The example equally applies to any country > He had the deed to several parcels > but it turned out an uncle who lived in the village had 'sold' possession of some parcels of land to somebody else How is this a) different from my examples and b) can be solved by blockchain? Blockchain automagically makes selling of something impossible? > How might the blockchain help here? Prevent modification of the land records without the express wishes of the deed holder. You don't need "modification". All you need is the next entry: "the rightful owner of X is now Y". How is blockchain going to prevent anyone from doing this?
- valarauko 5y ago
  > Blockchain automagically makes selling of something impossible? This issue here wasn't about selling something - unfortunately in India when it comes to land, possession is nine tenths of the law. It doesn't matter if you're the true legal owner if somebody else claims physical possession and has a vaguely genuine looking piece of paper. Proving or disproving the veracity of that piece of paper takes many many years, and in this aspect India is different from many other places in the world. > How is this a) different from my examples It's not very different from your example, though my anecdote is meant to demonstrate some of the real life issues meant to be addressed. I'm not convinced that a blockchain is the correct solution, but I can understand the motivation. > You don't need "modification". All you need is the next entry: "the rightful owner of X is now Y". How is blockchain going to prevent anyone from doing this? Unless I'm misunderstanding how blockchains work, how can that next entry be created without being signed by my private key (and my consent)? I have no idea if any concrete suggestions have been made around the architecture of land record blockchains, but it could presumably be something like a multisignature wallet: each transaction has to necessarily be signed by the seller, buyer, & government authority. Of course, like I stated in my original comment, I'm not convinced that blockchain is the correct solution here, or how certain issues could be realistically resolved.
  - dmitriid 5y ago
    > Unless I'm misunderstanding how blockchains work, how can that next entry be created without being signed by my private key (and my consent)? Because this concept breaks for any number of use cases, see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27217681 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27217681 It even breaks for my example of "Ahmet illegaly obtained ownership in the very beginning".
    - valarauko 5y ago
      One of my own personal misgivings around the blockchain for government services is the management of private keys. However, I don't see this as a conversation killer, and is something that could probably be resolved. Issues around concepts like Power of Attorney, co-ownership, & time limited ownership can be resolved by something like Multisignature wallets. Court orders changing ownership without the owner's consent could also be resolved the same way: the Sessions Court is a non-required signatory on all multisignature land registry wallets, with the District Magistrate & Sessions Judge keys sufficient to sign transactions. > It even breaks for my example of "Ahmet illegaly obtained ownership in the very beginning". I don't think any sort of land registry record reform can hope to resolve issues like this. This problem isn't resolved by digitizing records to a regular database either. In India, the sort of issues my family & others have faced around land ownership claims is that the original records are largely on paper, nearly impossible to verify with the district administration, and all most people have is a faded paper receipt decades old. This is the weak point exploited by bad actors. I'll offer a personal anecdote this time. Some years ago we tried to transfer the ownership of our home to the name of our mother (it was registered in the name of my late father). The only paperwork we had received decades ago was a paper receipt. We hired a lawyer, appeared before the District Magistrate, gave affidavits, and the process chugged along for years. When it came time to verify the details of the registration, the relevant pages from the registry were 'missing'. The fact that we had paperwork proving ownership meant nothing since the master records were unavailable. We filed another petition which took even more years, till our lawyer suggested that a bribe in the right hands in the district records office might surface the original missing pages. Sure enough, a few months later the missing pages were "rediscovered". Then there were inspection agents who came to remind us that everybody along the greasy pole had to be sufficiently lubricated. The entire process took 10 years, a great deal of anguish for my elderly mother, and quite some money. This was in a large city, and the situation is worse in more rural areas. Does a blockchain based land registry resolve every single one of these concerns? No, but neither would a database. A database would resolve many, but not all of the problems I faced. Similarly, a blockchain might resolve different issues, and likely raise new concerns. From my perspective, given how bad actors at the district administration operate, I'd be wary of a database they had control over. Sure, there are probably ways to address those concerns, but I can also see why people see the blockchain as a possible solution.

dmitriid 5y ago

> I can't speak to the Afghanistan example The example equally applies to any country > He had the deed to several parcels > but it turned out an uncle who lived in the village had 'sold' possession of some parcels of land to somebody else How is this a) different from my examples and b) can be solved by blockchain? Blockchain automagically makes selling of something impossible? > How might the blockchain help here? Prevent modification of the land records without the express wishes of the deed holder. You don't need "modification". All you need is the next entry: "the rightful owner of X is now Y". How is blockchain going to prevent anyone from doing this?

valarauko 5y ago
> Blockchain automagically makes selling of something impossible? This issue here wasn't about selling something - unfortunately in India when it comes to land, possession is nine tenths of the law. It doesn't matter if you're the true legal owner if somebody else claims physical possession and has a vaguely genuine looking piece of paper. Proving or disproving the veracity of that piece of paper takes many many years, and in this aspect India is different from many other places in the world. > How is this a) different from my examples It's not very different from your example, though my anecdote is meant to demonstrate some of the real life issues meant to be addressed. I'm not convinced that a blockchain is the correct solution, but I can understand the motivation. > You don't need "modification". All you need is the next entry: "the rightful owner of X is now Y". How is blockchain going to prevent anyone from doing this? Unless I'm misunderstanding how blockchains work, how can that next entry be created without being signed by my private key (and my consent)? I have no idea if any concrete suggestions have been made around the architecture of land record blockchains, but it could presumably be something like a multisignature wallet: each transaction has to necessarily be signed by the seller, buyer, & government authority. Of course, like I stated in my original comment, I'm not convinced that blockchain is the correct solution here, or how certain issues could be realistically resolved.
- dmitriid 5y ago
  > Unless I'm misunderstanding how blockchains work, how can that next entry be created without being signed by my private key (and my consent)? Because this concept breaks for any number of use cases, see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27217681 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27217681 It even breaks for my example of "Ahmet illegaly obtained ownership in the very beginning".
  - valarauko 5y ago
    One of my own personal misgivings around the blockchain for government services is the management of private keys. However, I don't see this as a conversation killer, and is something that could probably be resolved. Issues around concepts like Power of Attorney, co-ownership, & time limited ownership can be resolved by something like Multisignature wallets. Court orders changing ownership without the owner's consent could also be resolved the same way: the Sessions Court is a non-required signatory on all multisignature land registry wallets, with the District Magistrate & Sessions Judge keys sufficient to sign transactions. > It even breaks for my example of "Ahmet illegaly obtained ownership in the very beginning". I don't think any sort of land registry record reform can hope to resolve issues like this. This problem isn't resolved by digitizing records to a regular database either. In India, the sort of issues my family & others have faced around land ownership claims is that the original records are largely on paper, nearly impossible to verify with the district administration, and all most people have is a faded paper receipt decades old. This is the weak point exploited by bad actors. I'll offer a personal anecdote this time. Some years ago we tried to transfer the ownership of our home to the name of our mother (it was registered in the name of my late father). The only paperwork we had received decades ago was a paper receipt. We hired a lawyer, appeared before the District Magistrate, gave affidavits, and the process chugged along for years. When it came time to verify the details of the registration, the relevant pages from the registry were 'missing'. The fact that we had paperwork proving ownership meant nothing since the master records were unavailable. We filed another petition which took even more years, till our lawyer suggested that a bribe in the right hands in the district records office might surface the original missing pages. Sure enough, a few months later the missing pages were "rediscovered". Then there were inspection agents who came to remind us that everybody along the greasy pole had to be sufficiently lubricated. The entire process took 10 years, a great deal of anguish for my elderly mother, and quite some money. This was in a large city, and the situation is worse in more rural areas. Does a blockchain based land registry resolve every single one of these concerns? No, but neither would a database. A database would resolve many, but not all of the problems I faced. Similarly, a blockchain might resolve different issues, and likely raise new concerns. From my perspective, given how bad actors at the district administration operate, I'd be wary of a database they had control over. Sure, there are probably ways to address those concerns, but I can also see why people see the blockchain as a possible solution.