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> - If arch upgrades the major version of glibc during some random package install (rather than a system upgrade), and you don't upgrade the whole system at onc

> - If arch upgrades the major version of glibc during some random package install (rather than a system upgrade), and you don't upgrade the whole system at once, every app that didn't get upgraded will fail to start due to soname mismatches... and that can mean that pacman, sudo, etc are all busted (this has actually happened to me) Okay I just wanna point something out here, partial upgrades in Arch are broken by design because they simply can't work. Don't do it. That being said... > - Arch will release a new version of Xorg before the graphics card vendors release new drivers that are compatible with it. Same for kernel versions too. ... kernel ABI is stable and even ancillary interfaces are usually stable, so usually it's quite A-OK to not immediately upgrade the kernel.

Liskni_si 5y ago
Can you elaborate why has Arch chosen to not support partial upgrades by design? They do work in Debian and it's saved my day a number of times. They let me roll back a broken upgrade without holding back upgrades of the rest of the system, and my computer then continues to be usable until the package in question is fixed.
- Quekid5 5y ago
  They choose not to officially support it precisely because of the types of issues that upgrading e.g. glibc or openssl can cause. That said, the vast majority of the time only upgrading a particular application/package (and its dependencies) will work just fine. It's just that there are no (official) guarantees.
  - Liskni_si 5y ago
    The types of issues upgrading e.g. glibc or openssl can cause are largely predictable, aren't they? That's why there's libtool and sonames and that kind of stuff. The only missing piece is support for this in the package manager…
    - nemetroid 5y ago
      Pacman can roll back packages, and does let you stop certain packages from being upgraded. As you say, you could probably get away with doing it, if the package in question has "boring" (i.e. ABI stable) dependencies.
- wvh 5y ago
  Because Debian sort of maintains their own "pinned" versions between upstream and you, you basically get Debian's version possibly with their own patches and fixes; whereas Arch just directly gives you upstream, compiled for your platform. Debian's way of working is labour intensive, requiring packagers to fork, follow and maintain fixes and security issues in the version of the software they're packaging. They generally do a great job, but this is not a sustainable approach for smaller distributions. Arch Linux on the other hand follows upstream in real time, so you get the latest fixes directly from upstream, but there is no real Arch Linux "version buffer" that allows to freeze the versions of (parts of) your system. You move with the stream, that's sort of the philosophy of rolling distributions like Arch Linux.
  - Liskni_si 5y ago
    I don't think that's it, really. The real trick is that Debian packages have sonames in their versions, so ABI compatibility is encoded in package dependencies. So when I try to downgrade a library (to a known older version from snapshot.debian.org), it knows precisely which packages depend on the new version and forces them to be downgraded as well. This is entirely orthogonal to following upstream vs. backporting patches. Sure, Debian (stable) does backport patches, which makes it more likely that single package downgrades don't downgrade half of the system, but it really is a different thing. Debian testing/unstable follow upstream to a larger extent than Debian stable, and upstream fixes are usually preferred to patch backports. Still, partial upgrades and downgrades almost always work without trouble.
paulfurtado 5y ago
Yeah, definitely usually fine to avoid kernel upgrades, so that is a saving grace. The issue is just that pacman -Syu is going to be full of surprises

Liskni_si 5y ago

Can you elaborate why has Arch chosen to not support partial upgrades by design? They do work in Debian and it's saved my day a number of times. They let me roll back a broken upgrade without holding back upgrades of the rest of the system, and my computer then continues to be usable until the package in question is fixed.

Quekid5 5y ago
They choose not to officially support it precisely because of the types of issues that upgrading e.g. glibc or openssl can cause. That said, the vast majority of the time only upgrading a particular application/package (and its dependencies) will work just fine. It's just that there are no (official) guarantees.
- Liskni_si 5y ago
  The types of issues upgrading e.g. glibc or openssl can cause are largely predictable, aren't they? That's why there's libtool and sonames and that kind of stuff. The only missing piece is support for this in the package manager…
  - nemetroid 5y ago
    Pacman can roll back packages, and does let you stop certain packages from being upgraded. As you say, you could probably get away with doing it, if the package in question has "boring" (i.e. ABI stable) dependencies.
wvh 5y ago
Because Debian sort of maintains their own "pinned" versions between upstream and you, you basically get Debian's version possibly with their own patches and fixes; whereas Arch just directly gives you upstream, compiled for your platform. Debian's way of working is labour intensive, requiring packagers to fork, follow and maintain fixes and security issues in the version of the software they're packaging. They generally do a great job, but this is not a sustainable approach for smaller distributions. Arch Linux on the other hand follows upstream in real time, so you get the latest fixes directly from upstream, but there is no real Arch Linux "version buffer" that allows to freeze the versions of (parts of) your system. You move with the stream, that's sort of the philosophy of rolling distributions like Arch Linux.
- Liskni_si 5y ago
  I don't think that's it, really. The real trick is that Debian packages have sonames in their versions, so ABI compatibility is encoded in package dependencies. So when I try to downgrade a library (to a known older version from snapshot.debian.org), it knows precisely which packages depend on the new version and forces them to be downgraded as well. This is entirely orthogonal to following upstream vs. backporting patches. Sure, Debian (stable) does backport patches, which makes it more likely that single package downgrades don't downgrade half of the system, but it really is a different thing. Debian testing/unstable follow upstream to a larger extent than Debian stable, and upstream fixes are usually preferred to patch backports. Still, partial upgrades and downgrades almost always work without trouble.

paulfurtado 5y ago

Yeah, definitely usually fine to avoid kernel upgrades, so that is a saving grace. The issue is just that pacman -Syu is going to be full of surprises