9 ms·

How is entropy related to "male gaze". This approach seems to be unsupervised, I don't see the problem.

colllectorof 5y ago
I see that you didn't get the memo. If an algorithm or a mathematical definition is made by a white man, it's by definition racist and sexist because it was made by a white man. Entropy was defined by Claude Shannon who was a white man, so entropy is racist and sexist, because it absorbed all of Shannon's biases.
- oceanghost 5y ago
  I honestly can't tell if you're joking or not.
  - bigfudge 5y ago
    Sadly he’s too angry to make the joke funny. As always there probably is a grain of truth to the idea that postmodern feminist critiques occasionally disappear up their own fundamental, and so there’s a joke to be made here. But this isn’t it!
    - oceanghost 5y ago
      Anger has been a plague lately.
      - colllectorof 5y ago
        Could have something to do with literally all major sources of information in US showing ideologically-charged garbage in front of people who want to focus on other things in life.
opsy2 5y ago
How is entropy defined in this context? Clearly there is human-derived input in the system (otherwise... What's the point just crop randomly)
- TheGallopedHigh 5y ago
  Randomness in pixel values
- jedberg 5y ago
  Here is the code: https://github.com/reddit-archive/reddit/blob/753b17407e9a9dca09558526805922de24133d53/r2/r2/lib/media.py#L92 https://github.com/reddit-archive/reddit/blob/753b17407e9a9d... But in short, it's a histogram of the values of the pixels.
  - bavell 5y ago
    "Entropy" in this context also left me wondering. Perhaps "variance" or "deviation from the mean"? Thanks for the insights!
    - MauranKilom 5y ago
      Entropy usually boils down to "sum p * log(p) for all p (and possibly normalize)", assuming you have discrete probabilities p. It is not related to variance or mean.
  - andbberger 5y ago
    Which is not really image entropy at all, as it totally neglects spatial structure. You could sort an image and get the same entropy using the histogram approach.
SiempreViernes 5y ago
I don't think the claim is that the behaviour is caused by "male gaze", but rather that the outcome of always focusing the cropping around any visible cleavage is functionally identical.
skavi 5y ago
Whether or not it's unsupervised, whether or not it's sexist, it seems that a thumbnail focusing on a person's face rather than their breasts is typically going to be more desirable. Depending on context, of course.
teachingassist 5y ago
> This approach seems to be unsupervised, I don't see the problem. Someone wrote and tested this algorithm, and either: a) didn't test it on pictures of women, or, b) didn't notice that it cropped breasts rather than faces, or, c) didn't think that was a problem. If they had noticed and cared, this wouldn't be the approach in use.
- refenestrator 5y ago
  It sounds like it was blasted out in an afternoon. Maybe they weren't thinking about boobies a whole lot, tried like 5 random test images and shipped it? Presumably there are a ton of failure modes for that algorithm, why get so moralistic and high-horse about just one?
  - teachingassist 5y ago
    > why get so moralistic and high-horse about just one? Not doing so; just observing the facts. If a proposed 'unsupervised' algorithm of this simplicity highlighted women's faces perfectly, but zoomed in on men's receding hairlines, it wouldn't have made it past the drawing board. Indeed, it's reasonable to believe that nobody would have noticed that it consistently worked for women. We certainly wouldn't know that this algorithm existed or be talking about it here. We observe a bias in what is considered important to check before shipping.
    - refenestrator 5y ago
      That's an AWFUL lot of assumptions, there. You've constructed an entire complex narrative around something where all we know is that it's very simplistic.
      - teachingassist 5y ago
        I don't think this is a complex narrative. It's the reality of development: The simplest case is just to pick the most central square, and then you could probably improve that by picking a standard square according the rule of thirds. Those are the naive algorithms - this choice of alternative algorithm is deliberate and isn't as naive or simplistic as you're claiming. The algorithm is only considered useful because it appears to do better than that, on whatever examples that the developers tried (i.e. there was a business case for using it), and against other possible code. Including, likely, pictures of their own selves. That's certainly what I would test it on, until it vaguely worked. What 'awful lot of assumptions' do you think I am making? I don't imagine we are in disagreement about this.

I see that you didn't get the memo. If an algorithm or a mathematical definition is made by a white man, it's by definition racist and sexist because it was made by a white man. Entropy was defined by Claude Shannon who was a white man, so entropy is racist and sexist, because it absorbed all of Shannon's biases.

oceanghost 5y ago
I honestly can't tell if you're joking or not.
- bigfudge 5y ago
  Sadly he’s too angry to make the joke funny. As always there probably is a grain of truth to the idea that postmodern feminist critiques occasionally disappear up their own fundamental, and so there’s a joke to be made here. But this isn’t it!
  - oceanghost 5y ago
    Anger has been a plague lately.
    - colllectorof 5y ago
      Could have something to do with literally all major sources of information in US showing ideologically-charged garbage in front of people who want to focus on other things in life.

opsy2 5y ago

How is entropy defined in this context? Clearly there is human-derived input in the system (otherwise... What's the point just crop randomly)

TheGallopedHigh 5y ago
Randomness in pixel values
jedberg 5y ago
Here is the code: https://github.com/reddit-archive/reddit/blob/753b17407e9a9dca09558526805922de24133d53/r2/r2/lib/media.py#L92 https://github.com/reddit-archive/reddit/blob/753b17407e9a9d... But in short, it's a histogram of the values of the pixels.
- bavell 5y ago
  "Entropy" in this context also left me wondering. Perhaps "variance" or "deviation from the mean"? Thanks for the insights!
  - MauranKilom 5y ago
    Entropy usually boils down to "sum p * log(p) for all p (and possibly normalize)", assuming you have discrete probabilities p. It is not related to variance or mean.
- andbberger 5y ago
  Which is not really image entropy at all, as it totally neglects spatial structure. You could sort an image and get the same entropy using the histogram approach.

SiempreViernes 5y ago

I don't think the claim is that the behaviour is caused by "male gaze", but rather that the outcome of always focusing the cropping around any visible cleavage is functionally identical.

skavi 5y ago

Whether or not it's unsupervised, whether or not it's sexist, it seems that a thumbnail focusing on a person's face rather than their breasts is typically going to be more desirable. Depending on context, of course.

teachingassist 5y ago

> This approach seems to be unsupervised, I don't see the problem. Someone wrote and tested this algorithm, and either: a) didn't test it on pictures of women, or, b) didn't notice that it cropped breasts rather than faces, or, c) didn't think that was a problem. If they had noticed and cared, this wouldn't be the approach in use.

refenestrator 5y ago
It sounds like it was blasted out in an afternoon. Maybe they weren't thinking about boobies a whole lot, tried like 5 random test images and shipped it? Presumably there are a ton of failure modes for that algorithm, why get so moralistic and high-horse about just one?
- teachingassist 5y ago
  > why get so moralistic and high-horse about just one? Not doing so; just observing the facts. If a proposed 'unsupervised' algorithm of this simplicity highlighted women's faces perfectly, but zoomed in on men's receding hairlines, it wouldn't have made it past the drawing board. Indeed, it's reasonable to believe that nobody would have noticed that it consistently worked for women. We certainly wouldn't know that this algorithm existed or be talking about it here. We observe a bias in what is considered important to check before shipping.
  - refenestrator 5y ago
    That's an AWFUL lot of assumptions, there. You've constructed an entire complex narrative around something where all we know is that it's very simplistic.
    - teachingassist 5y ago
      I don't think this is a complex narrative. It's the reality of development: The simplest case is just to pick the most central square, and then you could probably improve that by picking a standard square according the rule of thirds. Those are the naive algorithms - this choice of alternative algorithm is deliberate and isn't as naive or simplistic as you're claiming. The algorithm is only considered useful because it appears to do better than that, on whatever examples that the developers tried (i.e. there was a business case for using it), and against other possible code. Including, likely, pictures of their own selves. That's certainly what I would test it on, until it vaguely worked. What 'awful lot of assumptions' do you think I am making? I don't imagine we are in disagreement about this.