4 ms·

Not everything has to run on top of HTTP or use json. IRCv3 gets a lot more right than wrong.

threeseed 5y ago
If you want adoption within the enterprise then you really need to use HTTP. And these days even most SMBs are taking network security seriously and blocking non HTTP ports.
- metroholografix 5y ago
  So let those who need it use existing HTTP <-> IRC gateways or write their own. IRC is flexible enough to accommodate this which is testament to how resilient and extensible the protocol has proven to be over the decades. I see no reason whatsoever to make HTTP a core requirement.
  - threeseed 5y ago
    Which is why everyone uses Slack, Teams etc and IRC is irrelevant. Because there wasn't enough focus on end user experience.
    - metroholografix 5y ago
      "Everyone". Obviously not. Having used IRC for 25 years, I'll take excellent SNR over the sort of focus on end user experience you're talking about.
      - Karrot_Kream 5y ago
        > I'll take excellent SNR over the sort of focus on end user experience you're talking about The kind of SNR that causes an attempted takeover? As IRC has depopulated it's been increasingly inhabited by a particular type of person and has a particular culture. That's fine, but ascribing some technical superiority to it because of your cultural preferences doesn't make sense. IRC attracts a certain type of user who persists despite its UX; it's not technologically superior. The rest of us who aren't in that culture go elsewhere, to a network that fulfills our needs. Like Matrix (or even XMPP for some).
        Dracophoenix 5y ago
        >The kind of SNR that causes an attempted takeover? As IRC has depopulated it's been increasingly inhabited by a particular type of person and has a particular culture. If you mean anime subbers, 4channers, and the warez/pirate crowd , they've all moved to Discord or Telegram. The only ones left are the technically inclined folk who adopted the platform at its genesis (i.e. #c, #perl, etc.)
        Karrot_Kream 5y ago
        No I mean the technically inclined. Adding a layer of gatekeeping just means folks who are okay with that keeping make it across. IRC has a very particular culture.
        metroholografix 5y ago
        You're being disingenuous. IRC has been right at the center of the vast majority of non-enterprise technical communities and especially opensource for the last 25 years. Say what you will about culture but this is a fact and I don't see it changing. Slack and Teams are gimmicks at best. Matrix unusable for me, every single one of my peers and, apparently, the vast majority of said technical communities that keep their center of operations firmly entrenched in IRC.
        xvilka 5y ago
        We recently switched to use self-hosted Mattermost plus Matterbridge[1] to connect with IRC, Telegram, Discord, etc. There is also an amazing console client - Matterhorn[2]. [1] https://github.com/42wim/matterbridge https://github.com/42wim/matterbridge [2] https://github.com/matterhorn-chat/matterhorn https://github.com/matterhorn-chat/matterhorn
        sneak 5y ago
        Note that mattermost by default phones home to a spyware analytics service even when you selfhost it. The env vars for disabling it are hidden/undocumented. Copy the diagnostics/securityalert env vars from here, as well as the sed lines: https://github.com/caprover/one-click-apps/blob/master/public/v4/apps/mattermost.yml https://github.com/caprover/one-click-apps/blob/master/publi...
    - mech422 5y ago
      slack has to be the worst 'end user experience' I've had with messaging. The threading is horrible, the client is huge and regularly 'stalls' (garbage collection?), and the voice chat is laggy as all get out. Basically, for large international orgs - it seems to be more trouble then its worth... about the only highlight is ease of creating bots for monitoring and automation.
- hedora 5y ago
  This should fix the “broken enterprise network” problem: https://www.stunnel.org/ https://www.stunnel.org/ Listen on port 443; problem solved until they switch to server allow lists.
SilverRed 5y ago
Using HTTP would be an absolutely massive improvement for IRC. IRC is essentially useless on mobile without having some man in the middle server to convert IRC to http. It's even pretty useless on laptops or desktops that aren't always running.
- GekkePrutser 5y ago
  Quassel and the mobile Quasseldroid app fix that and more :) They add a lot of mod cons like infinite scrollback, persistent connection and multi network bouncing with a really good UI.
- Nasreddin_Hodja 5y ago
  > IRC is essentially useless on mobile without having some man in the middle server to convert IRC to http. That's not true. I used HoloIRC client on Android with no problem. > It's even pretty useless on laptops or desktops that aren't always running. There is no need to. If it's about talks history, chats are not right tool then, forums are more convenient. Chats are suitable for casual or urgent instant discussions. In all other cases forums are better because user doesn't have to present during discussion, he can return and comment any time he want.
  - SilverRed 5y ago
    >There is no need to. If it's about talks history, chats are not right tool then, forums are more convenient. This sounds like a fox and the grapes situation. You can't see history on IRC so rather than noting the deficiency, you list it as a feature. As a modern IM user, I am part of many low volume groups and the history is essential as there will usually only be 5 or so messages in the day which I would have just missed if I had used IRC. I agree that history on a fast pace 100 member chat is not so useful but not having it isn't a benefit either.

If you want adoption within the enterprise then you really need to use HTTP. And these days even most SMBs are taking network security seriously and blocking non HTTP ports.

metroholografix 5y ago
So let those who need it use existing HTTP <-> IRC gateways or write their own. IRC is flexible enough to accommodate this which is testament to how resilient and extensible the protocol has proven to be over the decades. I see no reason whatsoever to make HTTP a core requirement.
- threeseed 5y ago
  Which is why everyone uses Slack, Teams etc and IRC is irrelevant. Because there wasn't enough focus on end user experience.
  - metroholografix 5y ago
    "Everyone". Obviously not. Having used IRC for 25 years, I'll take excellent SNR over the sort of focus on end user experience you're talking about.
    - Karrot_Kream 5y ago
      > I'll take excellent SNR over the sort of focus on end user experience you're talking about The kind of SNR that causes an attempted takeover? As IRC has depopulated it's been increasingly inhabited by a particular type of person and has a particular culture. That's fine, but ascribing some technical superiority to it because of your cultural preferences doesn't make sense. IRC attracts a certain type of user who persists despite its UX; it's not technologically superior. The rest of us who aren't in that culture go elsewhere, to a network that fulfills our needs. Like Matrix (or even XMPP for some).
      - Dracophoenix 5y ago
        >The kind of SNR that causes an attempted takeover? As IRC has depopulated it's been increasingly inhabited by a particular type of person and has a particular culture. If you mean anime subbers, 4channers, and the warez/pirate crowd , they've all moved to Discord or Telegram. The only ones left are the technically inclined folk who adopted the platform at its genesis (i.e. #c, #perl, etc.)
        Karrot_Kream 5y ago
        No I mean the technically inclined. Adding a layer of gatekeeping just means folks who are okay with that keeping make it across. IRC has a very particular culture.
      - metroholografix 5y ago
        You're being disingenuous. IRC has been right at the center of the vast majority of non-enterprise technical communities and especially opensource for the last 25 years. Say what you will about culture but this is a fact and I don't see it changing. Slack and Teams are gimmicks at best. Matrix unusable for me, every single one of my peers and, apparently, the vast majority of said technical communities that keep their center of operations firmly entrenched in IRC.
        xvilka 5y ago
        We recently switched to use self-hosted Mattermost plus Matterbridge[1] to connect with IRC, Telegram, Discord, etc. There is also an amazing console client - Matterhorn[2]. [1] https://github.com/42wim/matterbridge https://github.com/42wim/matterbridge [2] https://github.com/matterhorn-chat/matterhorn https://github.com/matterhorn-chat/matterhorn
        sneak 5y ago
        Note that mattermost by default phones home to a spyware analytics service even when you selfhost it. The env vars for disabling it are hidden/undocumented. Copy the diagnostics/securityalert env vars from here, as well as the sed lines: https://github.com/caprover/one-click-apps/blob/master/public/v4/apps/mattermost.yml https://github.com/caprover/one-click-apps/blob/master/publi...
  - mech422 5y ago
    slack has to be the worst 'end user experience' I've had with messaging. The threading is horrible, the client is huge and regularly 'stalls' (garbage collection?), and the voice chat is laggy as all get out. Basically, for large international orgs - it seems to be more trouble then its worth... about the only highlight is ease of creating bots for monitoring and automation.
hedora 5y ago
This should fix the “broken enterprise network” problem: https://www.stunnel.org/ https://www.stunnel.org/ Listen on port 443; problem solved until they switch to server allow lists.

SilverRed 5y ago

Using HTTP would be an absolutely massive improvement for IRC. IRC is essentially useless on mobile without having some man in the middle server to convert IRC to http. It's even pretty useless on laptops or desktops that aren't always running.

GekkePrutser 5y ago
Quassel and the mobile Quasseldroid app fix that and more :) They add a lot of mod cons like infinite scrollback, persistent connection and multi network bouncing with a really good UI.
Nasreddin_Hodja 5y ago
> IRC is essentially useless on mobile without having some man in the middle server to convert IRC to http. That's not true. I used HoloIRC client on Android with no problem. > It's even pretty useless on laptops or desktops that aren't always running. There is no need to. If it's about talks history, chats are not right tool then, forums are more convenient. Chats are suitable for casual or urgent instant discussions. In all other cases forums are better because user doesn't have to present during discussion, he can return and comment any time he want.
- SilverRed 5y ago
  >There is no need to. If it's about talks history, chats are not right tool then, forums are more convenient. This sounds like a fox and the grapes situation. You can't see history on IRC so rather than noting the deficiency, you list it as a feature. As a modern IM user, I am part of many low volume groups and the history is essential as there will usually only be 5 or so messages in the day which I would have just missed if I had used IRC. I agree that history on a fast pace 100 member chat is not so useful but not having it isn't a benefit either.