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Frontier has been bad company, not because the management or employees were being malevolent. This is truly a case of Occams razor, this is simply a company str

Frontier has been bad company, not because the management or employees were being malevolent. This is truly a case of Occams razor, this is simply a company struggling with finances. Mini Rant: They went through bankruptcy, struggling to make ends meet, no bonuses, so all good employees left within first few years, no investors wanting to risk with installing or maintaining physical cable, and people, especially in this forum with hatred of ISP's, have no idea how expensive it is to maintain cable lines to every house in US, yet they expect GbPS for 39.99. 39.99 doesn't even cover truck costs for 5 years when somebody drives over or cuts fiber line on the street or digs to plant a tree, forget about any profit or return for the company.

ep103 5y ago
I have seen the internals of Frontier communications, and the area I saw, was completely run by consulting companies, that were all competing with each other not over contracts, but over which parts of Frontier's corporate hierarchy they had ownership of. It was normal for employees of the various consulting groups to jokingly compare which group was doing the most aggressive job to overcharge frontier comm. I have never stood in one location, and seen so many consulting groups managing so many people, doing so little productive work. I am not surprised to learn they have had financial problems.
ggggtez 5y ago
Ok but if they lied about what they had the ability to offer, how do you interpret that as "not bad"? I don't care if they had good customer service, or were working on a shoestring budget. If they sold something they couldn't do, then that's a crime.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
jabroni_salad 5y ago
Frontier said it in their own bankruptcy statement. When it came time to pick a technology to champion, they chose DSL, a decision that did not stand the test of time. You know what's more expensive than having to run infra to every home? Having to run it twice because your first choice didn't cut it. Infrastructure is an investment. You deploy infrastructure and then have customers pay for it over the next decade. Unfortunately, Frontier has the highest customer churn in the industry so the cash flow is really not great. Their challenge is to figure out how to execute that 2nd investment even though the first one never paid off. Over the past few months they completed their bankruptcy and shed a ton of debt, so they may actually be able to pull it off. Simultaneously, there are new challengers in the field like Google Fiber, ImOn, MetroNet, and municipal initiatives who are all making their first investment with fiber... and they all offer pretty good pricing.
- djrogers 5y ago
  > You know what's more expensive than having to run infra to every home? Having to run it twice because your first choice didn't cut it. Well, to be fair, the reason they chose DSL is so they wouldn't have to run infra to every house - POTS lines were already there.
- shkkmo 5y ago
  Frontier isn't an evil company because of their financial issues. They are evil becuase their response to those financial pressures is consistently lieing to their customers. In the recent past, when Frontier had extra cash, they used it to offer extra dividends to stock holders rather than building infrastructure. So please stop with the excuses.
_vertigo 5y ago
Did you work at Frontier? edit: Asking because it would be cool if you could expand a little bit on the troubles faced by Frontier or similar ISPs, if you have any info there.
- hguant 5y ago
  This comment violates one of the tenets of HN which keeps it a good place for discussion. >Please don't post insinuations about astroturfing, shilling, brigading, foreign agents and the like. It degrades discussion and is usually mistaken. What does your comment add?
  - _vertigo 5y ago
    I'm not doing that at all - his comment made it sound like he worked for an ISP. To me, hearing from someone who works at an ISP or even the ISP in question could add valuable context to the discussion. I'll edit my comment to make that more clear. Side note - it's funny, in a wry way, that my question can be simultaneously asked in (what felt to me like) such an innocent way and interpreted in such a malevolent way when you view it through the lens of "standard HN snark".
    - dikaio 5y ago
      Agreed
joshstrange 5y ago
> have no idea how expensive it is to maintain cable lines to every house in US, yet they expect GbPS for 39.99. 39.99 doesn't even cover truck costs for 5 years when somebody drives over or cuts fiber line on the street or digs to plant a tree, forget about any profit or return for the company. I'm not sure I understand what you are saying. Surely you understand that it's 39.99 a /month/ and a cut cable normally affects more than 1 household (so it's 39.99 times households affected). Also, it seems like you are conveniently leaving out the billions that the US government have given to ISPs to improve/build their networks. Bad/failing ISPs have no one to blame but themselves. I don't hate all ISPs but I do hate the ones that are scummy (which the big players all are). I gladly pay ~$100/mo to MetroNet for gigabit, they are about as no-nonsense as you can get in my book.
- djanogo 5y ago
  Which part of them declaring bankruptcy, no bonuses, not able to hire quality replacements (due to salary) makes you think Frontier is bad?, What exactly do you think is bad about Frontier specifically, exact details?, not abstract faults. Do you think somebody at Frontier stole the bIlLIONs of US gov money and bought yachts? This hand waving and calling companies "bad" because they failed financially while at the same time complaining about monthly fee or speed or support is oxymoronic. Try this as a experiment, call a local insured commercial digging company and get quote to lay cable from alley to garage under the driveway/pavement WITHOUT damaging it or any other utility lines and restore all plants/grass/sprinklers after they are done. Ask them quote for the neighborhood, oh if there is any HOA get some lawyers to play HOA politics and write up documents to convince HOA to allow digging/construction. Now try to make that money back at average rate of $40/month while maintaining those lines, paying electric company for renting/sharing the posts/properties. >I gladly pay ~$100/mo to MetroNet for gigabit, they are about as no-nonsense as you can get in my book. You is NOT everybody on the street, not even remotely are people willing to pay $60/month for gigabit, even if you lay gigabit line, people in general are only wanting to pay $39.99 or $49.99 and get 50 or 100Mbps.
  - FireBeyond 5y ago
    > Do you think somebody at Frontier stole the bIlLIONs of US gov money and bought yachts? May 27, 2020: Court signs off on $38M in executive bonuses at Frontier. (Source: https://www.channelfutures.com/telephony-uc-collaboration/frontier-executives-get-huge-bonuses-despite-bankruptcy https://www.channelfutures.com/telephony-uc-collaboration/fr...) SEVEN WEEKS LATER, July 16, 2020: Frontier seeks, and is granted an ADDITIONAL $25M in executive bonuses. (Source: https://www.law360.com/articles/1292694/frontier-wins-ok-for-an-additional-25m-in-exec-bonuses https://www.law360.com/articles/1292694/frontier-wins-ok-for...)
jackson1442 5y ago
> yet they expect GbPS for 39.99 Have you ever paid for internet in the US? GbPS is more like $80+ first of all (especially with fees), second both federal and state governments have given Frontier alone nearly $2 BILLION dollars to get their network up to snuff. https://ilsr.org/fact-sheet-frontier-communications-has-failed-rural-america/ https://ilsr.org/fact-sheet-frontier-communications-has-fail...
- PenguinCoder 5y ago
  $80+ for GbPS is an understatement. I pay $80/mo for a symmetric 250Mbps line. 1G would cost me over $500/mo
- bfuller 5y ago
  I live in the rural USA and pay $175 for 55 mb/s down, 10mb up on a good day. And if a bad thunderstorm hits it will be down for days.
CodeBeater 5y ago
>> yet they expect GbPS for 39.99. 39.99 doesn't even cover truck costs for 5 years when somebody drives over or cuts fiber line on the street or digs to plant a tree, forget about any profit or return for the company. Is there anything technical preventing companies from offering dedicated speeds and lines at a premium at residential neighborhoods other than pure economics?
dvdkon 5y ago
I pay 600CZK (~30USD) for a 1000/60 DOCSIS Internet connection (with a public IPv4 IP!) in the Czech Republic. Granted, it's to a flat in a city, not an isolated house in the suburbs, but I'm pretty sure Vodafone's rates are flat.

ep103 5y ago

I have seen the internals of Frontier communications, and the area I saw, was completely run by consulting companies, that were all competing with each other not over contracts, but over which parts of Frontier's corporate hierarchy they had ownership of. It was normal for employees of the various consulting groups to jokingly compare which group was doing the most aggressive job to overcharge frontier comm. I have never stood in one location, and seen so many consulting groups managing so many people, doing so little productive work. I am not surprised to learn they have had financial problems.

ggggtez 5y ago

Ok but if they lied about what they had the ability to offer, how do you interpret that as "not bad"? I don't care if they had good customer service, or were working on a shoestring budget. If they sold something they couldn't do, then that's a crime.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

jabroni_salad 5y ago

Frontier said it in their own bankruptcy statement. When it came time to pick a technology to champion, they chose DSL, a decision that did not stand the test of time. You know what's more expensive than having to run infra to every home? Having to run it twice because your first choice didn't cut it. Infrastructure is an investment. You deploy infrastructure and then have customers pay for it over the next decade. Unfortunately, Frontier has the highest customer churn in the industry so the cash flow is really not great. Their challenge is to figure out how to execute that 2nd investment even though the first one never paid off. Over the past few months they completed their bankruptcy and shed a ton of debt, so they may actually be able to pull it off. Simultaneously, there are new challengers in the field like Google Fiber, ImOn, MetroNet, and municipal initiatives who are all making their first investment with fiber... and they all offer pretty good pricing.

djrogers 5y ago
> You know what's more expensive than having to run infra to every home? Having to run it twice because your first choice didn't cut it. Well, to be fair, the reason they chose DSL is so they wouldn't have to run infra to every house - POTS lines were already there.
shkkmo 5y ago
Frontier isn't an evil company because of their financial issues. They are evil becuase their response to those financial pressures is consistently lieing to their customers. In the recent past, when Frontier had extra cash, they used it to offer extra dividends to stock holders rather than building infrastructure. So please stop with the excuses.

_vertigo 5y ago

Did you work at Frontier? edit: Asking because it would be cool if you could expand a little bit on the troubles faced by Frontier or similar ISPs, if you have any info there.

hguant 5y ago
This comment violates one of the tenets of HN which keeps it a good place for discussion. >Please don't post insinuations about astroturfing, shilling, brigading, foreign agents and the like. It degrades discussion and is usually mistaken. What does your comment add?
- _vertigo 5y ago
  I'm not doing that at all - his comment made it sound like he worked for an ISP. To me, hearing from someone who works at an ISP or even the ISP in question could add valuable context to the discussion. I'll edit my comment to make that more clear. Side note - it's funny, in a wry way, that my question can be simultaneously asked in (what felt to me like) such an innocent way and interpreted in such a malevolent way when you view it through the lens of "standard HN snark".
  - dikaio 5y ago
    Agreed

joshstrange 5y ago

> have no idea how expensive it is to maintain cable lines to every house in US, yet they expect GbPS for 39.99. 39.99 doesn't even cover truck costs for 5 years when somebody drives over or cuts fiber line on the street or digs to plant a tree, forget about any profit or return for the company. I'm not sure I understand what you are saying. Surely you understand that it's 39.99 a /month/ and a cut cable normally affects more than 1 household (so it's 39.99 times households affected). Also, it seems like you are conveniently leaving out the billions that the US government have given to ISPs to improve/build their networks. Bad/failing ISPs have no one to blame but themselves. I don't hate all ISPs but I do hate the ones that are scummy (which the big players all are). I gladly pay ~$100/mo to MetroNet for gigabit, they are about as no-nonsense as you can get in my book.

djanogo 5y ago
Which part of them declaring bankruptcy, no bonuses, not able to hire quality replacements (due to salary) makes you think Frontier is bad?, What exactly do you think is bad about Frontier specifically, exact details?, not abstract faults. Do you think somebody at Frontier stole the bIlLIONs of US gov money and bought yachts? This hand waving and calling companies "bad" because they failed financially while at the same time complaining about monthly fee or speed or support is oxymoronic. Try this as a experiment, call a local insured commercial digging company and get quote to lay cable from alley to garage under the driveway/pavement WITHOUT damaging it or any other utility lines and restore all plants/grass/sprinklers after they are done. Ask them quote for the neighborhood, oh if there is any HOA get some lawyers to play HOA politics and write up documents to convince HOA to allow digging/construction. Now try to make that money back at average rate of $40/month while maintaining those lines, paying electric company for renting/sharing the posts/properties. >I gladly pay ~$100/mo to MetroNet for gigabit, they are about as no-nonsense as you can get in my book. You is NOT everybody on the street, not even remotely are people willing to pay $60/month for gigabit, even if you lay gigabit line, people in general are only wanting to pay $39.99 or $49.99 and get 50 or 100Mbps.
- FireBeyond 5y ago
  > Do you think somebody at Frontier stole the bIlLIONs of US gov money and bought yachts? May 27, 2020: Court signs off on $38M in executive bonuses at Frontier. (Source: https://www.channelfutures.com/telephony-uc-collaboration/frontier-executives-get-huge-bonuses-despite-bankruptcy https://www.channelfutures.com/telephony-uc-collaboration/fr...) SEVEN WEEKS LATER, July 16, 2020: Frontier seeks, and is granted an ADDITIONAL $25M in executive bonuses. (Source: https://www.law360.com/articles/1292694/frontier-wins-ok-for-an-additional-25m-in-exec-bonuses https://www.law360.com/articles/1292694/frontier-wins-ok-for...)

jackson1442 5y ago

> yet they expect GbPS for 39.99 Have you ever paid for internet in the US? GbPS is more like $80+ first of all (especially with fees), second both federal and state governments have given Frontier alone nearly $2 BILLION dollars to get their network up to snuff. https://ilsr.org/fact-sheet-frontier-communications-has-failed-rural-america/ https://ilsr.org/fact-sheet-frontier-communications-has-fail...

PenguinCoder 5y ago
$80+ for GbPS is an understatement. I pay $80/mo for a symmetric 250Mbps line. 1G would cost me over $500/mo
bfuller 5y ago
I live in the rural USA and pay $175 for 55 mb/s down, 10mb up on a good day. And if a bad thunderstorm hits it will be down for days.

CodeBeater 5y ago

>> yet they expect GbPS for 39.99. 39.99 doesn't even cover truck costs for 5 years when somebody drives over or cuts fiber line on the street or digs to plant a tree, forget about any profit or return for the company. Is there anything technical preventing companies from offering dedicated speeds and lines at a premium at residential neighborhoods other than pure economics?

dvdkon 5y ago

I pay 600CZK (~30USD) for a 1000/60 DOCSIS Internet connection (with a public IPv4 IP!) in the Czech Republic. Granted, it's to a flat in a city, not an isolated house in the suburbs, but I'm pretty sure Vodafone's rates are flat.