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I think this actually happened before with Freenode staff breaking off into another network. Around 2006 staff got pissed at lilo (I forget the exact reasons) a

I think this actually happened before with Freenode staff breaking off into another network. Around 2006 staff got pissed at lilo (I forget the exact reasons) and started the Atheme network. Later that year lilo was run over and killed. After this staff returned and Atheme became the testing grounds for their new services and is today what Freenode runs as their services suite.

kragen 5y ago
This is different; this is a hostile takeover.
- joecool1029 5y ago
  That's a matter of perspective. Lilo's dead so it's not like we'll hear his side of the story. For other examples of forks which may or may not be considered hostile by some, see the ffmpeg/libav split from some years back (that just like Freenode, eventually reconverged).
  - Arnavion 5y ago
    ffmpeg and libav didn't "eventually reconverge." ffmpeg was always copying anything new that libav added when it made sense, and libav was eventually abandoned.
- ryanlol 5y ago
  Is it though? It seems that this was all initiated by freenode staff trying to walk back on the deal Christel made with rasengan, forcing his hand.
  - kragen 5y ago
    Christel was selling something she didn't own.
    - ryanlol 5y ago
      Who owns it then?
      - wrycoder 5y ago
        The side with the resources to pay the lawyers, apparently.
      - Macha 5y ago
        After the legal dispute, it appears that Andrew Lee owns the domains, website and any trademarks. This is about as much as Freenode "owned" for christel to sell. The server donors own their servers and can take them elsewhere if they wish. The channel operators own their channels and can take them elsewhere if they wish. The staff own their volunteer labor and can take them elsewhere if they wish. The users own their choice of platform, and can support whichever they wish.
      - kragen 5y ago
        Who owns the United States? Who owns Linux?
        ryanlol 5y ago
        >Who owns the United States? This is a legal entity that owns itself. >Who owns Linux? Linux Mark Institute owns the trademark, contributors own the copyright to their code. This is not a complicated question.
iratewizard 5y ago
There is an entire interesting rabbit hole dedicated to how much people hate Rob Levin (lilo). They talk about how he was a scammer, collected disability with his wife for ADHD, regularly misused his position in freenode to grift for money...
- pen2l 5y ago
  I've heard this before, but I've gotta add: about a decade ago, when I was a newbie in the FOSS world, I remember a pm interaction with lilo. He was kind, unassuming, and helped me with some basic nickserv commands. I only came to know who he was much much later. That stands in stark contrast to most ircops there who seem pretty unapproachable. And the quibble about a couple of K's really grates on me. The guy founded freenode and kept it going. Let the donations fund his groceries.
  - joecool1029 5y ago
    FWIW, I was an annoying teenager and lilo didn't K-Line me when I went through that phase (flooding channels with nonsense and generally causing some trouble). He was patient and I grew out of it. I never knew of the hate until I befriended a few of the atheme people and they told me some of their side. I do think he misappropriated funds to survive which is unethical but I'm not mad at the spirit of it. I used to troll the staff a bit that netsplits were caused by the /shakedown command lilo put in to collect donations. Unrelated, but freenode is weird among IRC networks. Other networks I went on would sometimes just ban people because they felt like it, not for any particular reason. The server donors were not allowed to give themselves O-Lines (IRC staff privs), this was an important distinction as well as it kept servers neutral, and later on was the reason they did not require a foundation with overhead. There was an incident that I believe they deleted off their blog where I think the Newark, NJ server was punted from the network for giving themselves an O-line without permission. So yes, the sale is weird because the assets should have only been the domain name and website. My guess on PIA wanting more was recommendations from their lawyers over GDPR crap but I don't really know or care.
  - kelp 5y ago
    I have similar memories of lilo. Kind, unassuming, and helpful. Me and some college friends had a small channel back in the early 2000s, and lilo would occasionally pop in and say hello. He was always nice. At the time I wasn't sure how he was able to spend so much time on IRC.

kragen 5y ago

This is different; this is a hostile takeover.

joecool1029 5y ago
That's a matter of perspective. Lilo's dead so it's not like we'll hear his side of the story. For other examples of forks which may or may not be considered hostile by some, see the ffmpeg/libav split from some years back (that just like Freenode, eventually reconverged).
- Arnavion 5y ago
  ffmpeg and libav didn't "eventually reconverge." ffmpeg was always copying anything new that libav added when it made sense, and libav was eventually abandoned.
ryanlol 5y ago
Is it though? It seems that this was all initiated by freenode staff trying to walk back on the deal Christel made with rasengan, forcing his hand.
- kragen 5y ago
  Christel was selling something she didn't own.
  - ryanlol 5y ago
    Who owns it then?
    - wrycoder 5y ago
      The side with the resources to pay the lawyers, apparently.
    - Macha 5y ago
      After the legal dispute, it appears that Andrew Lee owns the domains, website and any trademarks. This is about as much as Freenode "owned" for christel to sell. The server donors own their servers and can take them elsewhere if they wish. The channel operators own their channels and can take them elsewhere if they wish. The staff own their volunteer labor and can take them elsewhere if they wish. The users own their choice of platform, and can support whichever they wish.
    - kragen 5y ago
      Who owns the United States? Who owns Linux?
      - ryanlol 5y ago
        >Who owns the United States? This is a legal entity that owns itself. >Who owns Linux? Linux Mark Institute owns the trademark, contributors own the copyright to their code. This is not a complicated question.

iratewizard 5y ago

There is an entire interesting rabbit hole dedicated to how much people hate Rob Levin (lilo). They talk about how he was a scammer, collected disability with his wife for ADHD, regularly misused his position in freenode to grift for money...

pen2l 5y ago
I've heard this before, but I've gotta add: about a decade ago, when I was a newbie in the FOSS world, I remember a pm interaction with lilo. He was kind, unassuming, and helped me with some basic nickserv commands. I only came to know who he was much much later. That stands in stark contrast to most ircops there who seem pretty unapproachable. And the quibble about a couple of K's really grates on me. The guy founded freenode and kept it going. Let the donations fund his groceries.
- joecool1029 5y ago
  FWIW, I was an annoying teenager and lilo didn't K-Line me when I went through that phase (flooding channels with nonsense and generally causing some trouble). He was patient and I grew out of it. I never knew of the hate until I befriended a few of the atheme people and they told me some of their side. I do think he misappropriated funds to survive which is unethical but I'm not mad at the spirit of it. I used to troll the staff a bit that netsplits were caused by the /shakedown command lilo put in to collect donations. Unrelated, but freenode is weird among IRC networks. Other networks I went on would sometimes just ban people because they felt like it, not for any particular reason. The server donors were not allowed to give themselves O-Lines (IRC staff privs), this was an important distinction as well as it kept servers neutral, and later on was the reason they did not require a foundation with overhead. There was an incident that I believe they deleted off their blog where I think the Newark, NJ server was punted from the network for giving themselves an O-line without permission. So yes, the sale is weird because the assets should have only been the domain name and website. My guess on PIA wanting more was recommendations from their lawyers over GDPR crap but I don't really know or care.
- kelp 5y ago
  I have similar memories of lilo. Kind, unassuming, and helpful. Me and some college friends had a small channel back in the early 2000s, and lilo would occasionally pop in and say hello. He was always nice. At the time I wasn't sure how he was able to spend so much time on IRC.