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I don't think the technical data being hard to find is that surprising. China has a pattern of not talking about their space missions unless they go well. Since

I don't think the technical data being hard to find is that surprising. China has a pattern of not talking about their space missions unless they go well. Since they control their press the party only ever gets good press. It's also worth noting that the CNSA is not a civilian agency like NASA or the ESA. It's a military agency and treats programs as if they're secret military projects.

qiqing 5y ago
Here's a video from Chinese TV in Feb before the landing that someone else posted in this thread: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBhVaihkDvc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBhVaihkDvc I realize it doesn't have English subtitles, so I'll summarize some highlights of what's in there: * interviews with scientists and engineers working on the project * trajectory of the spacecraft and lots of talk about the challenges of reducing velocity for landing * historical overview and context for why Mars exploration is important for science * what to expect in the future landing and when it'll happen It's pretty similar to video programs that NASA produces. Not sure what information you're expecting that isn't out there, but I think you're attributing to secrecy what is more easily attributable to people not translating open public reports into English.
- mturmon 5y ago
  Here's a technical review of the (engineering, not science) imaging system for Perseverance, published in November 2000 before a touchdown in February 2021: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11214-020-00765-9 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11214-020-00765-9 Here's the process for how the landing site was selected: https://mars.nasa.gov/mars2020/mission/science/for-scientists/landing-site-selection/ https://mars.nasa.gov/mars2020/mission/science/for-scientist... I think this is more open than the Zhurong information has been, but I'd be happy to learn more.
eunos 5y ago
CNSA is under MIIT (Ministry of Industry and Information Technology) not PLA.
justicezyx 5y ago
> CNSA is not a cilivllian agency Look at Wikipedia: CNSA is under the jurisdiction Ministry of Industry and Information Technology (工信部）, which itself is a civilian department, at least not less so than US department of energy. What's the proof for your claim that CNSA is not a civilian agency?
- lacksconfidence 5y ago
  I am no expert in china, I don't know what exactly it means. But if my country had a "State Administration for Science, Technology and Industry for National Defense", and the national space adminstration reported to them, i would assume the national defense was military.
  - justicezyx 5y ago
    According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Administration_for_Science,_Technology_and_Industry_for_National_Defense#:~:text=The%20State%20Administration%20of%20Science,the%20superseding%20agency%20of%20the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Administration_for_Scien... "State Administration for Science, Technology and Industry for National Defense" is a civilian ministry within the State Council of the People's Republic of China and is a subordinate agency of the Chinese Ministry of Industry and Information Technology and the superseding agency of the Commission for Science, Technology and Industry for National Defense (COSTIND). You might as well think Ministry of Industry and Information Technology is in charge of civilian and military application of relevant tech in manufacturing and information tech. Just like DoE also manages nuclear weapons. The DOE/NNSA has federal responsibility for the design, testing and production of all nuclear weapons. According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Department_of_Energy#:~:text=The%20DOE%2FNNSA%20has%20federal,production%20of%20all%20nuclear%20weapons.&text=Design%20of%20the%20nuclear%20components,weapon%20systems%3A%20Sandia%20National%20Laboratories https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Department_of_En... I am unhappy about the parent, is that people are commenting things without sensible realization of their own limitations. I frequent here, is because of people are far more sensible about their limitations on almost all topics. But that sensibility is non-surprisingly low in China-related topics.
neither_color 5y ago
>China has a pattern of not talking about their space missions unless they go well Not only space. This is the reason it always feels like the west is collapsing while Chinese hegemony is inevitable. Western news outlets publish hyper-critical editorials about western governments that wouldn't be allowed on state run media in the east.
- hnnnnnnng 5y ago
  Go read the book manufacturing consent.
  - seryoiupfurds 5y ago
    Case in point, would that book have been published if all publishers were ideologically controlled by the state?
    - a0-prw 5y ago
      The whole point of the book is that it's not necessary for publishers to be controlled by the state for the state to control public opinion. So, go read the book.
- pasabagi 5y ago
  This is totally simplistic. If you think western journalists are incentivised to criticize basic societal norms and systemic problems, I have a bridge to sell you. I'm also not sure where you're getting these 'hyper-critical' editorials from - where I come from, nearly 150 thousand people just died in a pandemic, and the media has barely said a critical word. Obviously, in China, they are allowed to criticize even less, but westerners do not read chinese news. What's more, nor does anybody else. So the image of China doing very well is not for a lack of bad press. If you read publications about China over the last decade or so, it's a constant slew of doomsaying, and negativity, mostly about problems that turned out to be very surmountable or insubstantial. The image of China becoming more and more hegemonic is simple: look at their economic growth. Look at the size of the nation. Look at their intellectual culture. China being a very powerful country is a return to a historical norm, and is a totally reasonable development given how big their population is, how skilled it is, and its values. Meanwhile, the west is seen as falling apart because it is having a massive identity crisis which involved things like the leader of the free world bragging about how big his nukes were on Twitter. I'm not frankly particularly enthusiastic about China as a world power - I'm not a fan of confucianism, for example, and CCP spokespeople talk like politicians from dystopian sci-fi, but I think it's profoundly wrong to think China is deceiving the world with its masterful press controls. Far from it - the direct censorship and press controls are very blunt mechanisms most states have given up on because they don't work and if you're good at media, you don't need them anyway.
vkou 5y ago
> It's also worth noting that the CNSA is not a civilian agency like NASA or the ESA Given how many classified Shuttle missions[1] took place over the decades it was in service, and how the Hubble Space Telescope was likely a clone of a spy satellite, I don't think it's fair to say that NASA is entirely a civilian agency. [1] https://www.space.com/34522-secret-shuttle-missions.html https://www.space.com/34522-secret-shuttle-missions.html

qiqing 5y ago

Here's a video from Chinese TV in Feb before the landing that someone else posted in this thread: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBhVaihkDvc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBhVaihkDvc I realize it doesn't have English subtitles, so I'll summarize some highlights of what's in there: * interviews with scientists and engineers working on the project * trajectory of the spacecraft and lots of talk about the challenges of reducing velocity for landing * historical overview and context for why Mars exploration is important for science * what to expect in the future landing and when it'll happen It's pretty similar to video programs that NASA produces. Not sure what information you're expecting that isn't out there, but I think you're attributing to secrecy what is more easily attributable to people not translating open public reports into English.

mturmon 5y ago
Here's a technical review of the (engineering, not science) imaging system for Perseverance, published in November 2000 before a touchdown in February 2021: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11214-020-00765-9 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11214-020-00765-9 Here's the process for how the landing site was selected: https://mars.nasa.gov/mars2020/mission/science/for-scientists/landing-site-selection/ https://mars.nasa.gov/mars2020/mission/science/for-scientist... I think this is more open than the Zhurong information has been, but I'd be happy to learn more.

eunos 5y ago

CNSA is under MIIT (Ministry of Industry and Information Technology) not PLA.

justicezyx 5y ago

> CNSA is not a cilivllian agency Look at Wikipedia: CNSA is under the jurisdiction Ministry of Industry and Information Technology (工信部）, which itself is a civilian department, at least not less so than US department of energy. What's the proof for your claim that CNSA is not a civilian agency?

lacksconfidence 5y ago
I am no expert in china, I don't know what exactly it means. But if my country had a "State Administration for Science, Technology and Industry for National Defense", and the national space adminstration reported to them, i would assume the national defense was military.
- justicezyx 5y ago
  According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Administration_for_Science,_Technology_and_Industry_for_National_Defense#:~:text=The%20State%20Administration%20of%20Science,the%20superseding%20agency%20of%20the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Administration_for_Scien... "State Administration for Science, Technology and Industry for National Defense" is a civilian ministry within the State Council of the People's Republic of China and is a subordinate agency of the Chinese Ministry of Industry and Information Technology and the superseding agency of the Commission for Science, Technology and Industry for National Defense (COSTIND). You might as well think Ministry of Industry and Information Technology is in charge of civilian and military application of relevant tech in manufacturing and information tech. Just like DoE also manages nuclear weapons. The DOE/NNSA has federal responsibility for the design, testing and production of all nuclear weapons. According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Department_of_Energy#:~:text=The%20DOE%2FNNSA%20has%20federal,production%20of%20all%20nuclear%20weapons.&text=Design%20of%20the%20nuclear%20components,weapon%20systems%3A%20Sandia%20National%20Laboratories https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Department_of_En... I am unhappy about the parent, is that people are commenting things without sensible realization of their own limitations. I frequent here, is because of people are far more sensible about their limitations on almost all topics. But that sensibility is non-surprisingly low in China-related topics.

neither_color 5y ago

>China has a pattern of not talking about their space missions unless they go well Not only space. This is the reason it always feels like the west is collapsing while Chinese hegemony is inevitable. Western news outlets publish hyper-critical editorials about western governments that wouldn't be allowed on state run media in the east.

hnnnnnnng 5y ago
Go read the book manufacturing consent.
- seryoiupfurds 5y ago
  Case in point, would that book have been published if all publishers were ideologically controlled by the state?
  - a0-prw 5y ago
    The whole point of the book is that it's not necessary for publishers to be controlled by the state for the state to control public opinion. So, go read the book.
pasabagi 5y ago
This is totally simplistic. If you think western journalists are incentivised to criticize basic societal norms and systemic problems, I have a bridge to sell you. I'm also not sure where you're getting these 'hyper-critical' editorials from - where I come from, nearly 150 thousand people just died in a pandemic, and the media has barely said a critical word. Obviously, in China, they are allowed to criticize even less, but westerners do not read chinese news. What's more, nor does anybody else. So the image of China doing very well is not for a lack of bad press. If you read publications about China over the last decade or so, it's a constant slew of doomsaying, and negativity, mostly about problems that turned out to be very surmountable or insubstantial. The image of China becoming more and more hegemonic is simple: look at their economic growth. Look at the size of the nation. Look at their intellectual culture. China being a very powerful country is a return to a historical norm, and is a totally reasonable development given how big their population is, how skilled it is, and its values. Meanwhile, the west is seen as falling apart because it is having a massive identity crisis which involved things like the leader of the free world bragging about how big his nukes were on Twitter. I'm not frankly particularly enthusiastic about China as a world power - I'm not a fan of confucianism, for example, and CCP spokespeople talk like politicians from dystopian sci-fi, but I think it's profoundly wrong to think China is deceiving the world with its masterful press controls. Far from it - the direct censorship and press controls are very blunt mechanisms most states have given up on because they don't work and if you're good at media, you don't need them anyway.

vkou 5y ago

> It's also worth noting that the CNSA is not a civilian agency like NASA or the ESA Given how many classified Shuttle missions[1] took place over the decades it was in service, and how the Hubble Space Telescope was likely a clone of a spy satellite, I don't think it's fair to say that NASA is entirely a civilian agency. [1] https://www.space.com/34522-secret-shuttle-missions.html https://www.space.com/34522-secret-shuttle-missions.html