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The Palestinian people definitely deserve sympathy, and I think everyone (even Israelis) agree. The difference of opinion is that some people blame Israel for t

The Palestinian people definitely deserve sympathy, and I think everyone (even Israelis) agree. The difference of opinion is that some people blame Israel for their problems, while others blame Hamas. Let's be clear though: Anti-zionism is a form of antisemitism. People can rationalize all they want about how/why it isn't, but they would be wrong. You can argue all you want about the policies of the current Israeli government, but anti-zionism is still a form of racism.

MikeUt 5y ago
Is anti-ethno-nationalism still racism when applied to other countries, or just Israel?
- flyinglizard 5y ago
  Erasing one ethnostate (Israel) for another ethnostate (Palestine) is not racism, is just lack of self awareness.
- joelbluminator 5y ago
  What other countries is it applied to besides Israel?
afiori 5y ago
There is a difference between Zionism and deleting Palestine and Palestinians from existence.
hashbig 5y ago
Equating anti-Zionism with anti-semitism is a Zionist idea in and of itself. The fact that many Jews are anti-zionists doesn’t help your argument either.
- jjgreen 5y ago
  The history of anti-semitic Zionism is not too pretty either https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haavara_Agreement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haavara_Agreement
- adambatkin 5y ago
  Zionism is the idea that Jews should have a homeland in what is (now) Israel. It is not exclusionary - there are non-Jewish (including Muslim) citizens in Israel, and they have full rights (far more than they would have in most of the neighboring Arab countries, and yes there is sometimes racism - just like everywhere else in the world, though that is no excuse - but the that has nothing to do with Zionism). You can choose not to support Zionism. But if you actively believe "Jews should not have a homeland" that is anti-semetic.
  - jjgreen 5y ago
    Anti-Zionism is, by your own definition, opposition to the idea that Jews should have a homeland in what is (now) Israel. I don't see any proponents of "Jews should not have a homeland [at all]" here. Perhaps they could have New York, or Florida.
    - joelbluminator 5y ago
      It's hard to separate between Zionism and Judaism in this case, because Israel IS jewish in the sense that it is populated by Jews. So aborting Israel has real immediate consequences (quite likely bad) for 7 million Jews living there. It's very unlikely they will just all get an American citizenship or build a homeland in Florida, I've never heard of such a plan by anti zionists. I know you were kidding but it's worth noting the anti zionist plan is to just abort Israel, that's pretty much it. There is some nice talk about creating one democracy for everyone living there after around 7 million Palestinian will return but there is absolutely no real plan on how to sustain such a state or create a safe environment for jews to live in under those conditions. Let alone what bodies like Hamas have in mind for the future of that area...democracy is not part of the plan. So yes being anti Zionist is being anti Jewish to the Jews living in Israel.
- joelbluminator 5y ago
  If you would say that Palestinians don't deserve to live / create a state in Palestine it sure sounds anti Palestinian and maybe even islamophobic to me. In fact many people who deny the right of Palestinian to have their own state use islamophobic arguments. Saying the same about Jews should be looked at similarly, and yes there is quite an overlap between anti zionism and anti semitism. Also - Zionism means different things to different people; Bernie Sanders' Zionism (yes, he is a Zionist) isn't the same as Benjamin's Netanyahu. But simply outright rejecting Jews right to live in ANY borders in that area seems to me quite hard to justify. It may not be racist in and itself but it has big (probably bad) consequences for the jews living there if it's ever realized, and it is an idea that is loved by many people who are anti semitic (either muslims, extreme right or extreme left supporters).
yellow01 5y ago
Wherever a Jew goes he makes that place worse.
Dah00n 5y ago
For the love of god stop downvoting comments you disagree with. Let's have an interesting discussion about it instead and then maybe downvote bad comments that might pop up later. Downvoting and flagging a comment like this make people not even want to engage in a discussion as they quickly risk having replied to [FLAGGED] which ruins it for everyone as they can't read the thread later.
- jjgreen 5y ago
  I'm with you in general, but what do these two comments in this thread have in common? - Wherever a Jew goes he makes that place worse. - Anti-zionism is a form of antisemitism They're both stupid, untrue and intended to shut down the conversation. I think they both deserve downvotes.
  - names_are_hard 5y ago
    I disagree. The first comment generalizes the members of a religious/ethnic group and is hateful. The second is an (incorrect, IMO) idea that is commonly believed by supporters of a political movement that has sought take ownership over Judaism. There is very little discussion to be had about the first, but there is room to debate the second. But maybe this is a reflection of my own biases - the first statement offends me personally and makes me want to walk away from the conversation while the second just sounds wrong and makes me want to engage.
    - jjgreen 5y ago
      Appreciated. HN is one of the few places this can be discussed without descent into abuse.

MikeUt 5y ago

Is anti-ethno-nationalism still racism when applied to other countries, or just Israel?

flyinglizard 5y ago
Erasing one ethnostate (Israel) for another ethnostate (Palestine) is not racism, is just lack of self awareness.
joelbluminator 5y ago
What other countries is it applied to besides Israel?

afiori 5y ago

There is a difference between Zionism and deleting Palestine and Palestinians from existence.

hashbig 5y ago

Equating anti-Zionism with anti-semitism is a Zionist idea in and of itself. The fact that many Jews are anti-zionists doesn’t help your argument either.

jjgreen 5y ago
The history of anti-semitic Zionism is not too pretty either https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haavara_Agreement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haavara_Agreement
adambatkin 5y ago
Zionism is the idea that Jews should have a homeland in what is (now) Israel. It is not exclusionary - there are non-Jewish (including Muslim) citizens in Israel, and they have full rights (far more than they would have in most of the neighboring Arab countries, and yes there is sometimes racism - just like everywhere else in the world, though that is no excuse - but the that has nothing to do with Zionism). You can choose not to support Zionism. But if you actively believe "Jews should not have a homeland" that is anti-semetic.
- jjgreen 5y ago
  Anti-Zionism is, by your own definition, opposition to the idea that Jews should have a homeland in what is (now) Israel. I don't see any proponents of "Jews should not have a homeland [at all]" here. Perhaps they could have New York, or Florida.
  - joelbluminator 5y ago
    It's hard to separate between Zionism and Judaism in this case, because Israel IS jewish in the sense that it is populated by Jews. So aborting Israel has real immediate consequences (quite likely bad) for 7 million Jews living there. It's very unlikely they will just all get an American citizenship or build a homeland in Florida, I've never heard of such a plan by anti zionists. I know you were kidding but it's worth noting the anti zionist plan is to just abort Israel, that's pretty much it. There is some nice talk about creating one democracy for everyone living there after around 7 million Palestinian will return but there is absolutely no real plan on how to sustain such a state or create a safe environment for jews to live in under those conditions. Let alone what bodies like Hamas have in mind for the future of that area...democracy is not part of the plan. So yes being anti Zionist is being anti Jewish to the Jews living in Israel.
joelbluminator 5y ago
If you would say that Palestinians don't deserve to live / create a state in Palestine it sure sounds anti Palestinian and maybe even islamophobic to me. In fact many people who deny the right of Palestinian to have their own state use islamophobic arguments. Saying the same about Jews should be looked at similarly, and yes there is quite an overlap between anti zionism and anti semitism. Also - Zionism means different things to different people; Bernie Sanders' Zionism (yes, he is a Zionist) isn't the same as Benjamin's Netanyahu. But simply outright rejecting Jews right to live in ANY borders in that area seems to me quite hard to justify. It may not be racist in and itself but it has big (probably bad) consequences for the jews living there if it's ever realized, and it is an idea that is loved by many people who are anti semitic (either muslims, extreme right or extreme left supporters).

yellow01 5y ago

Wherever a Jew goes he makes that place worse.

Dah00n 5y ago

For the love of god stop downvoting comments you disagree with. Let's have an interesting discussion about it instead and then maybe downvote bad comments that might pop up later. Downvoting and flagging a comment like this make people not even want to engage in a discussion as they quickly risk having replied to [FLAGGED] which ruins it for everyone as they can't read the thread later.

jjgreen 5y ago
I'm with you in general, but what do these two comments in this thread have in common? - Wherever a Jew goes he makes that place worse. - Anti-zionism is a form of antisemitism They're both stupid, untrue and intended to shut down the conversation. I think they both deserve downvotes.
- names_are_hard 5y ago
  I disagree. The first comment generalizes the members of a religious/ethnic group and is hateful. The second is an (incorrect, IMO) idea that is commonly believed by supporters of a political movement that has sought take ownership over Judaism. There is very little discussion to be had about the first, but there is room to debate the second. But maybe this is a reflection of my own biases - the first statement offends me personally and makes me want to walk away from the conversation while the second just sounds wrong and makes me want to engage.
  - jjgreen 5y ago
    Appreciated. HN is one of the few places this can be discussed without descent into abuse.