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No need to go for the throat there. And especially not when you're not totally correct. Paul Fussell's Class documents the exact phenomenon OP describes. Wealt

by dcx 5y ago

No need to go for the throat there. And especially not when you're not totally correct. Paul Fussell's Class documents the exact phenomenon OP describes. Wealth is not class [1]; class is much more complex. For example, poor academics are higher class than rich blue-collar workers. Donald Trump is crazy rich but affects many of the working-class behaviours described in said book (technically "high prole"). Barack Obama has much less money but most would view him as upper-middle class. Nobody would accuse the above of being "out of their lane". My very rough approximation: class is something like the integral of wealth over very long periods of time. Being rich and well-connected for long periods gives you a chance to accumulate high-status behaviours and preferences, which can persist even when the wealth doesn't, and continue to confer benefits. Preferring golf or tennis to say, bowling, doesn't necessarily come with a major difference in affordability. But being good at golf might help your career more than bowling. Reading more helps in tons of ways, and most people only pick up this habit if they grow up with access to good education and parental cognitive surplus. [1] https://resourcegeneration.org/breakdown-of-class-characteristics-income-brackets/ https://resourcegeneration.org/breakdown-of-class-characteri...

fossuser 5y ago
Yeah - I agree with all of this. On a related note, I think the US approach to dismissing class is preferable to the UK where it’s very explicit. While both approaches have issues, when it’s explicit in the culture people seem to discriminate on it more (or even self-sort themselves based on identity). I think ideally it’s better for a culture to try to not do that, but pragmatically it’s good to be aware of its existence in order to be successful. I mostly chalk it up to social skills. On specifically being told to “stay in your lane” my point was more that if you’re behaving a certain way you won’t be told that, because the other people will assume you’re like them. It’s not only about wealth (though as in the article, the behavior is often related).
- 2cb 5y ago
  > On a related note, I think the US approach to dismissing class is preferable to the UK where it’s very explicit. Huh. My perception has always been that America is far more obsessed with class and “keeping up with the Joneses” than Britain. That said, I have in the past been called “rich” in a derogatory manner just for owning an iPad. But that’s more an amusing anecdote than social commentary. I find this type of thing to be the exception rather than the norm. For context I’m a Brit with a decent job but my family is certainly not upper middle class or even middle class and all my friends are working class because those are the people I naturally get along with. For the most part the fact I make more money doesn’t cause any friction in those social circles. One of my mates even said to me if he didn’t know better he’d assume I lived on a council estate. I guess the point I’m trying to make is the class lines are very blurred in modern day British society except for at the extremes. As such it’s not something people tend to obsess over. On the other hand I’ve found that, in general, middle class Yanks tend to care more about being perceived a certain way so people know they’re middle class or upper middle class or whatever else. I’ve even seen them argue over exactly what constitutes “real” upper middle class compared to regular middle class. Not something I’ve ever seen Brits do.
  - laurencerowe 5y ago
    Cross-Atlantic class discourse is always somewhat tricky since a car factory assembly line worker would be considered middle class in the US (based on income) but working class in the UK (based on status.) As a Brit in the US I find it kinda fascinating. > My perception has always been that America is far more obsessed with class and “keeping up with the Joneses” than Britain. The US is obsessed with material consumption. As such it probably plays a bigger part in status here than in the UK. > I guess the point I’m trying to make is the class lines are very blurred in modern day British society except for at the extremes. Perhaps this is a reflection of increasing university education and the changing nature of work away from factory jobs. In a way it's a move to a more American view of class, where most people are considered 'middle class'. > As such it’s not something people tend to obsess over. > I’ve even seen them argue over exactly what constitutes “real” upper middle class compared to regular middle class. Not something I’ve ever seen Brits do. Brits regularly obsess over whether someone or some hob qualifies as working class or not though!
watwut 5y ago
Donald Trump is as high class as it gets. From upbringing to the way his career developed. To the people he socializes with. > Being rich and well-connected for long periods ... which can persist even when the wealth doesn't, and continue to confer benefits. Preferring golf or tennis to say, bowling, doesn't necessarily come with a major difference in affordability. But being good at golf might help your career more than bowling He was literally rich from the day he was born to old age. He was getting those benefits whole his life. He plays golf. What he is not, is not being good person.
- fossuser 5y ago
  I think this is wrong and misses the point. A lot of his political popularity is because while he’s rich, the way he speaks is “working class”. He’s a good example of the difference we’re talking about.
  - watwut 5y ago
    My point is, he speaks exactly how he learned to speak in environment of rich people. He is not all that much how actual working class behaves. Instead, he is his how middle class imagines working class. And people who vote him are economically not the poorest either. And he is also what poor people imagine super rich to be.
    - fossuser 5y ago
      Eh - I don’t agree, his rhetoric and the macho over confidence is similar to a lot of people I grew up with that support him (that are working class).
- rkk3 5y ago
  Since when has a reality-tv career been considered high class.
  - bumby 5y ago
    It’s high status in some circles that equate celebrity with prestige

by dcx 5y ago

fossuser 5y ago

Yeah - I agree with all of this. On a related note, I think the US approach to dismissing class is preferable to the UK where it’s very explicit. While both approaches have issues, when it’s explicit in the culture people seem to discriminate on it more (or even self-sort themselves based on identity). I think ideally it’s better for a culture to try to not do that, but pragmatically it’s good to be aware of its existence in order to be successful. I mostly chalk it up to social skills. On specifically being told to “stay in your lane” my point was more that if you’re behaving a certain way you won’t be told that, because the other people will assume you’re like them. It’s not only about wealth (though as in the article, the behavior is often related).

2cb 5y ago
> On a related note, I think the US approach to dismissing class is preferable to the UK where it’s very explicit. Huh. My perception has always been that America is far more obsessed with class and “keeping up with the Joneses” than Britain. That said, I have in the past been called “rich” in a derogatory manner just for owning an iPad. But that’s more an amusing anecdote than social commentary. I find this type of thing to be the exception rather than the norm. For context I’m a Brit with a decent job but my family is certainly not upper middle class or even middle class and all my friends are working class because those are the people I naturally get along with. For the most part the fact I make more money doesn’t cause any friction in those social circles. One of my mates even said to me if he didn’t know better he’d assume I lived on a council estate. I guess the point I’m trying to make is the class lines are very blurred in modern day British society except for at the extremes. As such it’s not something people tend to obsess over. On the other hand I’ve found that, in general, middle class Yanks tend to care more about being perceived a certain way so people know they’re middle class or upper middle class or whatever else. I’ve even seen them argue over exactly what constitutes “real” upper middle class compared to regular middle class. Not something I’ve ever seen Brits do.
- laurencerowe 5y ago
  Cross-Atlantic class discourse is always somewhat tricky since a car factory assembly line worker would be considered middle class in the US (based on income) but working class in the UK (based on status.) As a Brit in the US I find it kinda fascinating. > My perception has always been that America is far more obsessed with class and “keeping up with the Joneses” than Britain. The US is obsessed with material consumption. As such it probably plays a bigger part in status here than in the UK. > I guess the point I’m trying to make is the class lines are very blurred in modern day British society except for at the extremes. Perhaps this is a reflection of increasing university education and the changing nature of work away from factory jobs. In a way it's a move to a more American view of class, where most people are considered 'middle class'. > As such it’s not something people tend to obsess over. > I’ve even seen them argue over exactly what constitutes “real” upper middle class compared to regular middle class. Not something I’ve ever seen Brits do. Brits regularly obsess over whether someone or some hob qualifies as working class or not though!

watwut 5y ago

Donald Trump is as high class as it gets. From upbringing to the way his career developed. To the people he socializes with. > Being rich and well-connected for long periods ... which can persist even when the wealth doesn't, and continue to confer benefits. Preferring golf or tennis to say, bowling, doesn't necessarily come with a major difference in affordability. But being good at golf might help your career more than bowling He was literally rich from the day he was born to old age. He was getting those benefits whole his life. He plays golf. What he is not, is not being good person.

fossuser 5y ago
I think this is wrong and misses the point. A lot of his political popularity is because while he’s rich, the way he speaks is “working class”. He’s a good example of the difference we’re talking about.
- watwut 5y ago
  My point is, he speaks exactly how he learned to speak in environment of rich people. He is not all that much how actual working class behaves. Instead, he is his how middle class imagines working class. And people who vote him are economically not the poorest either. And he is also what poor people imagine super rich to be.
  - fossuser 5y ago
    Eh - I don’t agree, his rhetoric and the macho over confidence is similar to a lot of people I grew up with that support him (that are working class).
rkk3 5y ago
Since when has a reality-tv career been considered high class.
- bumby 5y ago
  It’s high status in some circles that equate celebrity with prestige