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This is one of the big issues with Matrix that doesn't get talked about enough: it's not managed by a real standards body. It was previously run by a company wh

This is one of the big issues with Matrix that doesn't get talked about enough: it's not managed by a real standards body. It was previously run by a company who kept trying to monetize the IP, then it was run by a few people who split off that company (and still kept trying to figure out how to monetize it and pay themselves a wage with it). I'm not against the devs being able to pay themselves, that's great, but the specs themselves shouldn't be run that way. Existing standards bodies have more experience, more legal protections for the users, and are just generally better at developing standards.

callahad 5y ago
> Existing standards bodies [...] are just generally better at developing standards. Speaking in a strictly personal capacity, I don't think that point can be taken for granted. The W3C's missteps with HTML5, and WHATWG's success, is a particularly notable failing of a dedicated standards body. The Rust programming language is also developed and codified outside of a traditional standards organization.
- SamWhited 5y ago
  That's fair; I don't mean to suggest that all standards bodies are perfect all the time, or that they've never made mistakes :) just that it's better than making up a foundation spinoff from a company that doesn't have any experience and will re-invent the wheel yet again instead of submitting the standard to one of the existing standards bodies.
  - joepie91_ 5y ago
    Matrix as a protocol is still in active development. Unlike "low-level" protocols such as HTTP, the Matrix protocol is much closer to end-user experience and so it must be able to move relatively quickly to remain competitive with proprietary systems. This generally does not fit into the process of standards bodies like the IETF very well. There's a reason why eg. the WHATWG exists, basically.
    - SamWhited 5y ago
      Sure, it doesn't have to be the IETF, that was just an example. But even they tend to do this well (by eg. spinning off a smaller more agile standards body to keep up with building extensions more rapidly). Also, rapid development has its own set of problems as we've seen with XMPP (where no two clients support the same set of features because new ones are being developed to keep up with various proprietary things all the time). Anyways, point is, don't reinvent the wheel, I'm sure one of the standard bodies could have been a good fit if we needed this at all, but Matrix definitely isn't a good fit for this Freenode replacement and this is one of the reasons why (the other is that Freenode works just fine and the point is that this is a drop in replacement).
Arathorn 5y ago
> It was previously run by a company who kept trying to monetize the IP, then it was run by a few people who split off that company (and still kept trying to figure out how to monetize it and pay themselves a wage with it). This is just false. Speaking as co-founder and project lead for Matrix, it's been the same team all along since we began in 2013. We were incubated until 2017 in a company which never tried to monetize the protocol, and then we span out to set up Element (formerly New Vector) where we keep the lights on by selling Matrix hosting and support/consulting. At the same time we set up The Matrix.org Foundation as a non-profit neutral standards body, with an independent board where the original founders are deliberately in the minority - and when we set it up, half of the spec core team were independent of Element too. (This changed as folks on the team opted to join Element so they could work on Matrix fulltime). Rather than spreading FUD about Matrix, why not collaborate and work together? Or at least spend the energy on improving XMPP rather than negging us...
- vlmutolo 5y ago
  This topic seems to come up a lot, and I didn't know that, for example, the Matrix founders are in the minority on the Matrix Foundation board. Is there a place with this history or the governance structure that people can link to the next time this comes up?
  - Arathorn 5y ago
    https://matrix.org/foundation https://matrix.org/foundation is intended to be the single source of truth for this, and has bios of the foundation board members (or Guardians, as we call ourselves as 'board members' or 'directors' sounds boring :)
- SamWhited 5y ago
  I am not advocating for XMPP, nor am I nagging you. You showed up to advocate Matrix on a thread about IRC, stop accusing me of things and collaborate yourself instead of reinventing the wheel in terms of specs and in terms of standards bodies. Everything I said about the company and foundation is accurate as far as I can tell. I am very glad there is a foundation, but it's still not okay: submit to an existing standards body and stop advertising on threads about IRC.
fastball 5y ago
> real standards body Who decides when a standards body is real?
- SamWhited 5y ago
  It just happens over many years and many successfully published and adopted standards. I don't have a good definition for you (although that's a really interesting thing to think about, maybe it's worth writing about) but I suspect most people know them when they see them.
  - pferde 5y ago
    Well, if this comment is not a textbook example of FUD, I don't know what is.
  - anoncake 5y ago
    So only "standards bodies" should create standards, and you have to create standards to become one? Then standards bodies cannot come into being and therefore don't exist.
    - SamWhited 5y ago
      You're making giant leaps from what I said. I didn't say it's an absolute truth forever and always throughout the universe that you can't create new standards bodies. I said this was a bad place to do it.
    - spiritplumber 5y ago
      https://xkcd.com/927/ https://xkcd.com/927/
    - prepend 5y ago
      Good standards bodies, I think, allow lots of bee SME members who can propose new standards. I think IETF is a good example of how anyone can propose standards on a plethora of topics. When they were very young it was hard to trust but now they are decades old with hundreds of standards demonstrating how easy it is to propose and work on new standards. Maybe even the “gold standard” of standards bodies.
natural219 5y ago
What are you even talking about lol
- SamWhited 5y ago
  What part confused you? If I can clarify I will.
  - natural219 5y ago
    You just seem to be making many negative claims with little substance behind them.
    - SamWhited 5y ago
      I don't understand what you want; it's all true as far as I can tell, do you want a detailed technical breakdown of the protocol in an HN thread? This doesn't seem to be the place but the graph protocol mechanisms are pretty easily verified from their spec
    - prepend 5y ago
      These claims seem pretty basic and are easily read about in their Wikipedia article, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrix_(protocol) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrix_(protocol)

callahad 5y ago

> Existing standards bodies [...] are just generally better at developing standards. Speaking in a strictly personal capacity, I don't think that point can be taken for granted. The W3C's missteps with HTML5, and WHATWG's success, is a particularly notable failing of a dedicated standards body. The Rust programming language is also developed and codified outside of a traditional standards organization.

SamWhited 5y ago
That's fair; I don't mean to suggest that all standards bodies are perfect all the time, or that they've never made mistakes :) just that it's better than making up a foundation spinoff from a company that doesn't have any experience and will re-invent the wheel yet again instead of submitting the standard to one of the existing standards bodies.
- joepie91_ 5y ago
  Matrix as a protocol is still in active development. Unlike "low-level" protocols such as HTTP, the Matrix protocol is much closer to end-user experience and so it must be able to move relatively quickly to remain competitive with proprietary systems. This generally does not fit into the process of standards bodies like the IETF very well. There's a reason why eg. the WHATWG exists, basically.
  - SamWhited 5y ago
    Sure, it doesn't have to be the IETF, that was just an example. But even they tend to do this well (by eg. spinning off a smaller more agile standards body to keep up with building extensions more rapidly). Also, rapid development has its own set of problems as we've seen with XMPP (where no two clients support the same set of features because new ones are being developed to keep up with various proprietary things all the time). Anyways, point is, don't reinvent the wheel, I'm sure one of the standard bodies could have been a good fit if we needed this at all, but Matrix definitely isn't a good fit for this Freenode replacement and this is one of the reasons why (the other is that Freenode works just fine and the point is that this is a drop in replacement).

Arathorn 5y ago

> It was previously run by a company who kept trying to monetize the IP, then it was run by a few people who split off that company (and still kept trying to figure out how to monetize it and pay themselves a wage with it). This is just false. Speaking as co-founder and project lead for Matrix, it's been the same team all along since we began in 2013. We were incubated until 2017 in a company which never tried to monetize the protocol, and then we span out to set up Element (formerly New Vector) where we keep the lights on by selling Matrix hosting and support/consulting. At the same time we set up The Matrix.org Foundation as a non-profit neutral standards body, with an independent board where the original founders are deliberately in the minority - and when we set it up, half of the spec core team were independent of Element too. (This changed as folks on the team opted to join Element so they could work on Matrix fulltime). Rather than spreading FUD about Matrix, why not collaborate and work together? Or at least spend the energy on improving XMPP rather than negging us...

vlmutolo 5y ago
This topic seems to come up a lot, and I didn't know that, for example, the Matrix founders are in the minority on the Matrix Foundation board. Is there a place with this history or the governance structure that people can link to the next time this comes up?
- Arathorn 5y ago
  https://matrix.org/foundation https://matrix.org/foundation is intended to be the single source of truth for this, and has bios of the foundation board members (or Guardians, as we call ourselves as 'board members' or 'directors' sounds boring :)
SamWhited 5y ago
I am not advocating for XMPP, nor am I nagging you. You showed up to advocate Matrix on a thread about IRC, stop accusing me of things and collaborate yourself instead of reinventing the wheel in terms of specs and in terms of standards bodies. Everything I said about the company and foundation is accurate as far as I can tell. I am very glad there is a foundation, but it's still not okay: submit to an existing standards body and stop advertising on threads about IRC.

fastball 5y ago

> real standards body Who decides when a standards body is real?

SamWhited 5y ago
It just happens over many years and many successfully published and adopted standards. I don't have a good definition for you (although that's a really interesting thing to think about, maybe it's worth writing about) but I suspect most people know them when they see them.
- pferde 5y ago
  Well, if this comment is not a textbook example of FUD, I don't know what is.
- anoncake 5y ago
  So only "standards bodies" should create standards, and you have to create standards to become one? Then standards bodies cannot come into being and therefore don't exist.
  - SamWhited 5y ago
    You're making giant leaps from what I said. I didn't say it's an absolute truth forever and always throughout the universe that you can't create new standards bodies. I said this was a bad place to do it.
  - spiritplumber 5y ago
    https://xkcd.com/927/ https://xkcd.com/927/
  - prepend 5y ago
    Good standards bodies, I think, allow lots of bee SME members who can propose new standards. I think IETF is a good example of how anyone can propose standards on a plethora of topics. When they were very young it was hard to trust but now they are decades old with hundreds of standards demonstrating how easy it is to propose and work on new standards. Maybe even the “gold standard” of standards bodies.

natural219 5y ago

What are you even talking about lol

SamWhited 5y ago
What part confused you? If I can clarify I will.
- natural219 5y ago
  You just seem to be making many negative claims with little substance behind them.
  - SamWhited 5y ago
    I don't understand what you want; it's all true as far as I can tell, do you want a detailed technical breakdown of the protocol in an HN thread? This doesn't seem to be the place but the graph protocol mechanisms are pretty easily verified from their spec
  - prepend 5y ago
    These claims seem pretty basic and are easily read about in their Wikipedia article, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrix_(protocol) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrix_(protocol)