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Why does it matter? Matrix is no IRC. Fewer clients, way more complex protocol, the identity server is centralized, only one complete server implementation exis

Why does it matter? Matrix is no IRC. Fewer clients, way more complex protocol, the identity server is centralized, only one complete server implementation exists (and it seems like that's the only one that will ever exist, other attempts appear dead, despite the list on matrix.org) and worse than Freenode being owned by private capital, all of Matrix is controlled by New Vector LLC -- the protocol, the clients, and the biggest servers, and they operate the main identity server so they can keep track of your phone number or email address and map it to your Matrix ID. (I wonder when they'll start selling that data?) If this situation with Freenode makes you move to Matrix you're choosing to move to a network with all the same problems you're fleeing, but magnified Oh but there's one more thing about Matrix If you don't like it, the CEO of the company will come argue with you about it here I don't check for replies to my comments on HN because this community is too toxic but I'll bet Arathorn eventually comments to tell me I'm wrong. Maybe he'll promise that they don't sell the vector.im identity data. I don't trust him, anyway.

throwaways885 5y ago
You're right. Matrix is no IRC. But it's an order of magnitude better than Facebook Messenger.
- m-p-3 5y ago
  And it has encryption built-in, so even the server operator can't read messages.
_pferreir_ 5y ago
> Fewer clients It does work decently on my phone though. > the identity server is centralized Is that really a downside? I don't know a single newcomer who found authenticating with "Nickserv" was a natural thing to do.
- delfinom 5y ago
  At the same time, people used IRC because you could remain anonymous (with IP leakage being the only real issue). Matrix seems like a FBI honeypot asking you for email and phone number.
  - joepie91_ 5y ago
    As stated above, these are completely optional and only used for contact discovery (and password resets in the case of e-mail). Edit: Though I believe that matrix.org requires an e-mail address nowadays. But most homeservers don't.
    - stryan 5y ago
      matrix.org does not, though it does have a prompt for e-mail on registration page. There's a line of text under it explaining that this is for optional opt-in contact discovery and password resets.
      - joepie91_ 5y ago
        Hmm, I've been hearing mentions of it being required since recently. But then I haven't tried it myself, so I may be wrong.
    - atatatat 5y ago
      Matrix DOES NOT require an email or phone#.
- sillysaurusx 5y ago
  irccloud works great on my phone. You can paste screenshots and do pretty much everything I want out of a chat client.
pmoriarty 5y ago
"they can keep track of your phone number or email address and map it to your Matrix ID" Damn. Fuck that. My phone number and email is none of their business. It's so dispiriting to see every form of communication on the internet moving to ever more spying on their users.
- vurpo 5y ago
  The Matrix identity server system is entirely optional to use, and basically a separate system from the rest of Matrix. The reason for that is that there's not really any way to implement that specific feature in a decentralized way, so they did the next best thing by making it a centralized server that you can choose to use (opt-in) in case you want people to be able to find your Matrix ID based on your phone number or email address. Don't want them to know your phone number or email address? Simply don't give it to them. It won't break your Matrix experience in any way. Using the centralized identity server is entirely opt-in for this specific reason.
  - pmoriarty 5y ago
    "Using the centralized identity server is entirely opt-in" So there are no channels on Matrix that require you to identify yourself before you can join?
    - stryan 5y ago
      Not OP but no channels require you identify yourself through email/phone/etc to join. As far as I know there's not even a mechanism to do that. Third Party ID's (email etc) are only used for opt-in contact discovery.
      - supportlocal4h 5y ago
        They may also be used for password recovery.
  - weinzierl 5y ago
    > The Matrix identity server system is entirely optional to use, I remember that I gave my email when I signed up for Matrix at element.io but haven't found a way how to find out if I'm using the identity server. If my email ended up there, how can I see if it is public? How do I actually query the identity system for information, especially which information it has about myself? I have tried to find this out, but it is not obvious at all and I could not find much information except the repeated statement that the identity system is optional. Any hints about the identity system are appreciated.
atatatat 5y ago
As opposed to NickServ, which is the centralized point of failure for 90+% IRC users, and easily has top 10 worst UX I've come across in my career.
- xfitm3 5y ago
  I happen to like nickserv's UX. There are far worse UIs on the web. Simple is good.
  - Macha 5y ago
    The fact that nickserv is just another user and you can't be sure the network had taken precaution to avoid another using swiping the name in the event of a services outage is a problem. Add to that the (now admittedly rare) networks that don't use any form of nickserv and the phishing potential for users that don't realise that
    - xfitm3 5y ago
      The hostname mask is used to authenticate users. If someone can impersonate a hostname mask there are bigger problems. Nicknames are ephemeral. It is designed to be this way. You can use SASL and connect with a certificate to give yourself a fingerprint to validate your identity. It's fun and simple. Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater.
      - Macha 5y ago
        However, people or their clients use /msg NickServ. The passwords are sent to something identified by a nick only. I don't believe you if you claim people are doing a /who NickServ and checking the hostname mask first. SASL is definitely an improvement over NickServ.
        xfitm3 5y ago
        I use SASL to authenticate with NickServ on Freenode. My IRC client automatically looks up the hostname of users I message.
atatatat 5y ago
Also, I hope Arathorn (who is a pretty admirable & balanced community manager (unsure their title, no disrespect intended), does come and lay some well-reasoned facts out. But...the community itself will likely beat them here.
vlmutolo 5y ago
Even if you don't check, other people should know that this is extremely misleading. > Fewer clients, way more complex protocol This is actually a valid complaint, though it's partly due to Matrix being pretty young. The other part is that Matrix does a lot more for you than IRC (eg e2ee and federation) and those extra features require complexity. > The identity server is centralized This is a completely optional part of Matrix. You don't need identity servers. You never have to provide your phone number. They don't even push you to when you sign up. It exists as a convenience feature for people who complain that they need to be able to discover their friends on Matrix by their friends‘ phone numbers. Also, you're free to run your own identity server for you and your friends or whomever. > other attempts [at creating a homeserver] appear dead This one is way off. Synapse, the "one complete server" you must be referring to, is going to be deprecated. The Matrix Foundation team is working on Dendrite to replace it. There are also several independent projects that are very active, notably Conduit, started by one guy unaffiliated with the Matrix Foundation team. Conduit is extremely far along and is under constant development. > All of Matrix is controlled by New Vector LLC The people who created Matrix were careful to separate their for-profit projects from FOSS community projects. Matthew Hodgson (Arathorn) explains it well here [0]. TLDR: The Matrix spec, the Element clients, and the Synapse/Dendrite homeservers are maintained by a nonprofit. Same team, different organization and funding. Everything is open source, so anyone is free to fork at any time.
- m-p-3 5y ago
  > This one is way off. Synapse, the "one complete server" you must be referring to, is going to be deprecated. The Matrix Foundation team is working on Dendrite to replace it. Interesting, I've always been reticent to host my own instance because of how complex Synapse is to setup for the uninitiated. Hopefully Dendrite makes it simpler.
  - dtakuma 5y ago
    Doing the steps required manually was a little of a pain. I've found using an ansible playbook like https://github.com/spantaleev/matrix-docker-ansible-deploy https://github.com/spantaleev/matrix-docker-ansible-deploy to be the easiest way to setup a homeserver.
dooglius 5y ago
Not that I disagree with you, but it's pretty reasonable for someone to defend his product when it's criticized.
zaik 5y ago
What about XMPP?
- upofadown 5y ago
  That would be XMPP MUC (Multi User Conference). It has TLS encryption to the single server used by default. End to end encryption works in the form of OMEMO at least but I don't think it scales very well to lots and lots of connected users. I think PGP would also have the same sort of scaling problem. It has IRC like moderation and channel control stuff.There are a lot of light weight clients for it in the form of generic XMPP clients. There is a project currently active to make some sort of replacement.
- terrabitlock 5y ago
  Today XMPP it is the best choice for federated chats, as the protocol can handle any workload successfully.
bogwog 5y ago
I'm sure there's some truth to these criticisms, but it's hard to see this as anything other than immature trolling when you created an account called "newvectorllc" just to trash them.
viccuad 5y ago
This is straight FUD. The identity server is completely optional (you can just login with username & password), and you can opt out or swap it in element -> settings -> general. Also, there's plans for getting it replaced. There are quite a handful clients and servers. They are replacing their most featureful server (Synapse) with other implementations (Dendrite) to not have a monoculture. Heck, the German government is sponsoring development of yet another server (conduit.rs, in Rust). Your approach sounds like wanting everything implemented right away, and giving no leeway. And I don't think your attack on their CEO is relevant even. Their whole approach is based on that you shouldn't need to trust them at all. Given that your handle is "newvectorllc" (the previous company name of Element), it strikes me that you are so hellbent on trying to paint them in a bad light.

throwaways885 5y ago

You're right. Matrix is no IRC. But it's an order of magnitude better than Facebook Messenger.

m-p-3 5y ago
And it has encryption built-in, so even the server operator can't read messages.

_pferreir_ 5y ago

> Fewer clients It does work decently on my phone though. > the identity server is centralized Is that really a downside? I don't know a single newcomer who found authenticating with "Nickserv" was a natural thing to do.

delfinom 5y ago
At the same time, people used IRC because you could remain anonymous (with IP leakage being the only real issue). Matrix seems like a FBI honeypot asking you for email and phone number.
- joepie91_ 5y ago
  As stated above, these are completely optional and only used for contact discovery (and password resets in the case of e-mail). Edit: Though I believe that matrix.org requires an e-mail address nowadays. But most homeservers don't.
  - stryan 5y ago
    matrix.org does not, though it does have a prompt for e-mail on registration page. There's a line of text under it explaining that this is for optional opt-in contact discovery and password resets.
    - joepie91_ 5y ago
      Hmm, I've been hearing mentions of it being required since recently. But then I haven't tried it myself, so I may be wrong.
  - atatatat 5y ago
    Matrix DOES NOT require an email or phone#.
sillysaurusx 5y ago
irccloud works great on my phone. You can paste screenshots and do pretty much everything I want out of a chat client.

pmoriarty 5y ago

"they can keep track of your phone number or email address and map it to your Matrix ID" Damn. Fuck that. My phone number and email is none of their business. It's so dispiriting to see every form of communication on the internet moving to ever more spying on their users.

vurpo 5y ago
The Matrix identity server system is entirely optional to use, and basically a separate system from the rest of Matrix. The reason for that is that there's not really any way to implement that specific feature in a decentralized way, so they did the next best thing by making it a centralized server that you can choose to use (opt-in) in case you want people to be able to find your Matrix ID based on your phone number or email address. Don't want them to know your phone number or email address? Simply don't give it to them. It won't break your Matrix experience in any way. Using the centralized identity server is entirely opt-in for this specific reason.
- pmoriarty 5y ago
  "Using the centralized identity server is entirely opt-in" So there are no channels on Matrix that require you to identify yourself before you can join?
  - stryan 5y ago
    Not OP but no channels require you identify yourself through email/phone/etc to join. As far as I know there's not even a mechanism to do that. Third Party ID's (email etc) are only used for opt-in contact discovery.
    - supportlocal4h 5y ago
      They may also be used for password recovery.
- weinzierl 5y ago
  > The Matrix identity server system is entirely optional to use, I remember that I gave my email when I signed up for Matrix at element.io but haven't found a way how to find out if I'm using the identity server. If my email ended up there, how can I see if it is public? How do I actually query the identity system for information, especially which information it has about myself? I have tried to find this out, but it is not obvious at all and I could not find much information except the repeated statement that the identity system is optional. Any hints about the identity system are appreciated.

atatatat 5y ago

As opposed to NickServ, which is the centralized point of failure for 90+% IRC users, and easily has top 10 worst UX I've come across in my career.

xfitm3 5y ago
I happen to like nickserv's UX. There are far worse UIs on the web. Simple is good.
- Macha 5y ago
  The fact that nickserv is just another user and you can't be sure the network had taken precaution to avoid another using swiping the name in the event of a services outage is a problem. Add to that the (now admittedly rare) networks that don't use any form of nickserv and the phishing potential for users that don't realise that
  - xfitm3 5y ago
    The hostname mask is used to authenticate users. If someone can impersonate a hostname mask there are bigger problems. Nicknames are ephemeral. It is designed to be this way. You can use SASL and connect with a certificate to give yourself a fingerprint to validate your identity. It's fun and simple. Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater.
    - Macha 5y ago
      However, people or their clients use /msg NickServ. The passwords are sent to something identified by a nick only. I don't believe you if you claim people are doing a /who NickServ and checking the hostname mask first. SASL is definitely an improvement over NickServ.
      - xfitm3 5y ago
        I use SASL to authenticate with NickServ on Freenode. My IRC client automatically looks up the hostname of users I message.

atatatat 5y ago

Also, I hope Arathorn (who is a pretty admirable & balanced community manager (unsure their title, no disrespect intended), does come and lay some well-reasoned facts out. But...the community itself will likely beat them here.

vlmutolo 5y ago

Even if you don't check, other people should know that this is extremely misleading. > Fewer clients, way more complex protocol This is actually a valid complaint, though it's partly due to Matrix being pretty young. The other part is that Matrix does a lot more for you than IRC (eg e2ee and federation) and those extra features require complexity. > The identity server is centralized This is a completely optional part of Matrix. You don't need identity servers. You never have to provide your phone number. They don't even push you to when you sign up. It exists as a convenience feature for people who complain that they need to be able to discover their friends on Matrix by their friends‘ phone numbers. Also, you're free to run your own identity server for you and your friends or whomever. > other attempts [at creating a homeserver] appear dead This one is way off. Synapse, the "one complete server" you must be referring to, is going to be deprecated. The Matrix Foundation team is working on Dendrite to replace it. There are also several independent projects that are very active, notably Conduit, started by one guy unaffiliated with the Matrix Foundation team. Conduit is extremely far along and is under constant development. > All of Matrix is controlled by New Vector LLC The people who created Matrix were careful to separate their for-profit projects from FOSS community projects. Matthew Hodgson (Arathorn) explains it well here [0]. TLDR: The Matrix spec, the Element clients, and the Synapse/Dendrite homeservers are maintained by a nonprofit. Same team, different organization and funding. Everything is open source, so anyone is free to fork at any time.

m-p-3 5y ago
> This one is way off. Synapse, the "one complete server" you must be referring to, is going to be deprecated. The Matrix Foundation team is working on Dendrite to replace it. Interesting, I've always been reticent to host my own instance because of how complex Synapse is to setup for the uninitiated. Hopefully Dendrite makes it simpler.
- dtakuma 5y ago
  Doing the steps required manually was a little of a pain. I've found using an ansible playbook like https://github.com/spantaleev/matrix-docker-ansible-deploy https://github.com/spantaleev/matrix-docker-ansible-deploy to be the easiest way to setup a homeserver.

dooglius 5y ago

Not that I disagree with you, but it's pretty reasonable for someone to defend his product when it's criticized.

zaik 5y ago

What about XMPP?

upofadown 5y ago
That would be XMPP MUC (Multi User Conference). It has TLS encryption to the single server used by default. End to end encryption works in the form of OMEMO at least but I don't think it scales very well to lots and lots of connected users. I think PGP would also have the same sort of scaling problem. It has IRC like moderation and channel control stuff.There are a lot of light weight clients for it in the form of generic XMPP clients. There is a project currently active to make some sort of replacement.
terrabitlock 5y ago
Today XMPP it is the best choice for federated chats, as the protocol can handle any workload successfully.

bogwog 5y ago

I'm sure there's some truth to these criticisms, but it's hard to see this as anything other than immature trolling when you created an account called "newvectorllc" just to trash them.

viccuad 5y ago

This is straight FUD. The identity server is completely optional (you can just login with username & password), and you can opt out or swap it in element -> settings -> general. Also, there's plans for getting it replaced. There are quite a handful clients and servers. They are replacing their most featureful server (Synapse) with other implementations (Dendrite) to not have a monoculture. Heck, the German government is sponsoring development of yet another server (conduit.rs, in Rust). Your approach sounds like wanting everything implemented right away, and giving no leeway. And I don't think your attack on their CEO is relevant even. Their whole approach is based on that you shouldn't need to trust them at all. Given that your handle is "newvectorllc" (the previous company name of Element), it strikes me that you are so hellbent on trying to paint them in a bad light.