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To me, this reads more as a list of "from outside the valley bubble" signifiers than it does as a list of things that people who've grown up in poverty might do
by culturestate 5y ago
To me, this reads more as a list of "from outside the valley bubble" signifiers than it does as a list of things that people who've grown up in poverty might do, even if the former was a result of the latter.
There are some exceptions - not noticing missed paychecks is the biggest - but most of it is just stuff that happens every day in other offices.
Making your lunch at the office and not bringing Advil from home? I know generationally wealthy investment bankers who do these things, and they're the kind of people who spent their childhood summering at Fishers Island.
- 8fGTBjZxBcHq 5y agoI don't really see this as a valid criticism of the list though. A person identified a bunch of ways they are not like almost all of the rest of their coworkers. Do they have the information, experience, or responsibility to accurately categorize the specific cultural origin of every single one of those differences? Does it make the argument weaker if they miss a couple? Maybe a little but it's still strong.
- culturestate 5y agoI don't want to trivialize what the author is feeling, but when the conclusion they draw is... > Because they have never been poor, they had no idea what I might do. Why would I steal, when everyone clearly has enough? What even is scarcity? Why drink yourself to death tonight when there’s another sponsored event a week from now? Why eat like there will never be enough, when there has always been more than enough? ...I think it's worth discussing whether they may have misidentified the real root cause.
- 8fGTBjZxBcHq 5y agoI was trying to be nice. It's worth discussing I just don't think you contributed anything useful to the conversation with that comment. To me it reads like you're dismissing the author's experiences based on a technicality, rather than engaging with them on their terms and merits.
- Kalium 5y agoDo you think it might be possible to appreciate the reality and sincerity of someone's experiences while also questioning the validity of their interpretations? Would this be a form of substantive engagement on the merits of the piece? Personally, I see someone describing a number of points of cultural difference and an author who wholeheartedly believes they have identified the root of all of them. Is it worth discussing that the real, indisputably valid lived experience of the author, might also be linked to other things?
- 8fGTBjZxBcHq 5y agoYeah I think I've been pretty clear that I think that conversation is possible and also that I think that is not the conversation that is happening in this thread.
- 6gvONxR4sf7o 5y ago> Does it make the argument weaker if they miss a couple? Maybe a little but it's still strong. What if they miss almost every single one? That's how it reads to me, for almost every job I've had. That's why people are reacting like they are to the article.
- wdb 5y agoI brought my lunch to the office for many years but then I went in consulting and had to work from home and live in hotels and then its quite hard to prepare lunch or bring leftovers to work. If you stay in hotels
- giantg2 5y ago"Making your lunch at the office and not bringing Advil from home? I know generationally wealthy investment bankers who do these things" Generally they don't like to waste money. That's part of how they stay rich for generations (as opposed to someone who hits the lottery and the next generation is basically back to where they started in many cases).
- ClumsyPilot 5y agoYeah if we are talking about lunches and people on 6 figure salary this is a fairytale
- giantg2 5y agoA lunch between $15-20 every day is about $4k per year. That's still a large percentage of a person's after tax income even making $100k. You might want to correct Warren Buffett since he recommends packing your lunch at least 3 days per week.
- ClumsyPilot 5y agoIf you make £100,000 then an hour of your time is worth ~£48. You can get lunch for £10 or less, and cooking at home doesn't cost £0, so unless you are replacing a fancy two course lunch with a made at home sandwith, I dont see you saving over £2k a year. Warren Buffet is cool and all, but he is not the world's lunch expert
- geodel 5y agoYeah, but that's not how it works for most people. Because salary does not simply become 50% more if one add 50% more working hours. You do seem expert in peddling wisdom of internet cliches without even a bit of thinking
- ClumsyPilot 5y agoHuh? Do you only exist to earn money, not to actually enjoy life and spend time with family? Surely that time is worth something, or you would commute 4 hours from a hut in the woods
- codegeek 5y agoYea I mostly agree. For example not greeting cleaning lady has nothing to do with being rich or poor. It is just manners and some of us do it and some don't.
- rubyn00bie 5y agoSorry to say, but you’re being extremely naive if you think you’re right. People are awful to supporting staff and show them no respect on the regular.
- omosubi 5y agoAnd this is across class lines, no?
- phone8675309 5y agoIt happens across class lines _but_ I find that it's not the same degree. I find that the more used you are to people cleaning up after you the less that you thank them/acknowledge them for doing so. The teenage "I can leave my trash here - they have cleaning staff to clean it up!" mentality seems to be more prevalent the higher income your background is. I say hello to the cleaning staff, security staff, delivery drivers, food service workers, etc at work. I can't get my job done unless they're there, and I am acutely aware that our professional experience and treatment by management is significantly different.
- TulliusCicero 5y agoManners? I don't say hi to the cleaning staff for the same reason I don't say hi to most people I see in the office: I don't know them. If I did, then I would say hi. Do others greet every single person they see in the building?
- xyzelement 5y agoYes. You are working late, someone comes by your desk to empty your trash. You say hi and thank you. Especially once to realize you see the same person every night.
- scandox 5y agoI grew up very wealthy and it is what it is. I read that list and some parts of it make me sad and some make me laugh. There's been times I've been that asshole, and times I've not been. Some of the things are very American - like the teeth thing which is basically the ultimate American neurosis. We were rich but I didn't want someone messing with my perfectly useful teeth. There's no point being overly defensive about these things. People with all kinds of life experience can learn from each other.
- rubyfan 5y ago> There's no point being overly defensive about these things. People with all kinds of life experience can learn from each other. I don’t think this is the fault of the author. When you’ve never had the chance or experience or bank account to dream of doing something that many people take for granted it’s easy to sort of clam up or realize your different and that you have to try harder to fit in.
- scandox 5y agoI meant that wealthy people should not be too defensive about it.
- SkipperCat 5y agoBut wealthy people should be defensive about it. Or at least acknowledge the fact that we have severe and increasing income disparity in America and a lot of people are suffering with anxiety and other ills because we let so many people expose themselves to massive risk by being poor. In Europe, you don't go bankrupt when you get sick. Health care is one of the top causes of bankruptcy in America. In more socialized countries, you don't lose your housing when you lose your job. You don't need to struggle to keep a car (which you need for a job) because there is public transit and you're almost guaranteed access to higher education. The upper middle class and higher need to realize this is a big systematic risk for the country.
- 5y ago
- isomorph 5y agoBut it IS a list of what someone who grew up in poverty did
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- reader_mode 5y ago>not noticing missed paychecks is the biggest I work as a consultant and I regularly forget to send invoices for a month (sometimes two). It's been years since I was living from paycheck to paycheck, I can afford to skip out on months of income and not notice for day-to-day expenses. And I'm lazy about creating invoices (I should automate this and keep a regular activity log instead of pulling stuff from git and emails but yeah). More importantly I've worked with other consultants and I got the impression that people from finance are used to chasing them for invoices, so I don't think it's that rare.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- cratermoon 5y agoThere's a place somewhere between "making a lot of money" and "being truly wealthy" where a person can become obsessively frugal. Think of it as hoarders, but for money. They don't want to spend a penny more than they have to, because they have a kind of psychological investment in their net worth. Yes, they will spend a lot of money on some thing in order to be able to display their wealth as their class demands, but they'll pinch every penny in other ways. Think of the guy who tries to stiff a contractor, or never tips for service. So for your generationally wealthy investment bankers, summering at Fishers Island is a necessary conspicuous display of wealth as well a as networking and social process. Eating the office food and using the office pain killers are largely invisible, but to a person obsessed with having money, the costs are accounted for in their personal ledger. https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/10/wealth-can-make-us-selfish-and-stingy-two-psychologists-explain-why/ https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/10/wealth-can-make-us-se...
- 6gvONxR4sf7o 5y agoOr maybe the office painkillers and office food are just plain convenient? Which is why the office supplies them in the first place? It has nothing to do with being "money obsessed." Maybe my office is some weird outlier, but nearly every one of these "i'm poor in tech because" examples apply to my office, despite us being wealthy in tech.
- cratermoon 5y agoWell, yes, but are you the sort of independently generationally wealthy money-hoarder I'm referring to, or just one of the many folks who, while not poor, are still basically wage slaves who can't quit their jobs because they have a mortgage, kids, student loans, and need the health insurance? If you're the latter, the convenience factor is a money factor in disguise: you're so busy trying to maintain yourself and your family that you don't really have time to make your own lunch.
- 6gvONxR4sf7o 5y agoI think there are more groups of people than the two you described (money hoarders and basically wage slaves).
- sanderjd 5y agoYep this was my impression too. I'm from a professional class family in the rural part of the midwest now living in a cosmopolitan "crunchy" wealthy town. A lot of the stuff in here (like the stuff about food choices and tampons) is similar to things that set my teeth on edge just a bit in my town (and also, but not exclusively, at my office). I don't interpret it as stemming from wealth disparity but rather cultural and class disparity, which is related but not identical. For instance, people at the same wealth level as my family are much more likely to eschew fast food here and generally form more of their identity around their food choices. It's cultural. But a lot of the article does strike me as stemming from wealth disparity, and is very interesting. Indeed, another thing to add to the list is being unable to distinguish between behaviors that are different because of culture vs. because of wealth.