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It seems fairly obvious to me that the vast majority of civilisations will wire head themselves and disappear into virtual worlds of their own making. It takes

It seems fairly obvious to me that the vast majority of civilisations will wire head themselves and disappear into virtual worlds of their own making. It takes a very rare soul to forsake eternal bliss and an eternal world of your own creation. Most civilisations will have just enough of a life support to keep the machines running. They might be spurred into action each time a sun burns out, but other than that why bother with the outside world?

wildermuthn 5y ago
I really like this idea, especially since it plays well with Simulation arguments. But unless there is some kind of inception-like time distortion occurring in a Simulations-all-the-way down scenario, then disappearing into virtual worlds is not eternal. Eventually every star will burn out. I think that at least some people (and when you're dealing with galactic timescales and spaces, this means a lot of people) would stay in reality to figure out how to get around entropy and heat-death. So even though we might very well be in a simulation of VR-checked-out civilizations (or even if we aren't), I would expect to see some people in our simulation/reality fighting against the parameters of the simulation/reality that puts a time-limit on existence.
matheusd 5y ago
You only need a single Elon Musk and a bit of tech infra slightly better than ours for a civilization to Von Neumann its local galaxy (and possibly its affectable universe).
- taneq 5y ago
  In what way is a von Neumann machine not alive? Wouldn’t this just change the chemistry?
  - plutonorm 5y ago
    Exactly, I think life is probably a von Neumann probe. What is the easiest way to spread yourself through the galaxy? Throw bacteria and parcels of your genetics out into the void. Easy and low cost. What about radiation you say? I'm sure there are ways to engineer a survival rate > 0. It also follows: If it is possible that one civilisation spreads itself in this manner, it is likely that we are decedents of that civilisation. Simply because there will be many more copies of the original civilisation with a penchant for spraying their seed around than other kinds of civilisation.
    - matheusd 5y ago
      Bacterial life as we know it here on earth is too low fidelity for an honest-to-$deity, affectable-universe-spanning civ (just look at the temporal distance between a possible paspermia event in these terms in our solar system and replicating into the next couple of star systems). An _actual_ replicating Von Neumann probe, that we can imagine working within the laws of physics today (even if we don't yet have the engineering capacity to build) can actually clone not just a couple of DNA strands, but can bootstrap an entire new sapient civilization, including technological progress, likely all the way down to the civ's culture.

wildermuthn 5y ago

I really like this idea, especially since it plays well with Simulation arguments. But unless there is some kind of inception-like time distortion occurring in a Simulations-all-the-way down scenario, then disappearing into virtual worlds is not eternal. Eventually every star will burn out. I think that at least some people (and when you're dealing with galactic timescales and spaces, this means a lot of people) would stay in reality to figure out how to get around entropy and heat-death. So even though we might very well be in a simulation of VR-checked-out civilizations (or even if we aren't), I would expect to see some people in our simulation/reality fighting against the parameters of the simulation/reality that puts a time-limit on existence.

matheusd 5y ago

You only need a single Elon Musk and a bit of tech infra slightly better than ours for a civilization to Von Neumann its local galaxy (and possibly its affectable universe).

taneq 5y ago
In what way is a von Neumann machine not alive? Wouldn’t this just change the chemistry?
- plutonorm 5y ago
  Exactly, I think life is probably a von Neumann probe. What is the easiest way to spread yourself through the galaxy? Throw bacteria and parcels of your genetics out into the void. Easy and low cost. What about radiation you say? I'm sure there are ways to engineer a survival rate > 0. It also follows: If it is possible that one civilisation spreads itself in this manner, it is likely that we are decedents of that civilisation. Simply because there will be many more copies of the original civilisation with a penchant for spraying their seed around than other kinds of civilisation.
  - matheusd 5y ago
    Bacterial life as we know it here on earth is too low fidelity for an honest-to-$deity, affectable-universe-spanning civ (just look at the temporal distance between a possible paspermia event in these terms in our solar system and replicating into the next couple of star systems). An _actual_ replicating Von Neumann probe, that we can imagine working within the laws of physics today (even if we don't yet have the engineering capacity to build) can actually clone not just a couple of DNA strands, but can bootstrap an entire new sapient civilization, including technological progress, likely all the way down to the civ's culture.