6 ms·

I sympathize with a lot of this, and we'd probably agree at the practical level. As a matter of principle though... the principle is violated inevitably. A pri

I sympathize with a lot of this, and we'd probably agree at the practical level. As a matter of principle though... the principle is violated inevitably. A prison guard "profits" (or rather, makes a living by) imprisonment. Any company supplying a prison profits. Community service is forced labour, etc. That said, I totally agree on incentives. It's dangerous, especially private prisons. The pay rate does bother me... I can see why real pay isn't done, but just paying pennies per hour does not sit well. Maybe a 3rd party should get the money, and this could take on a restorative rather than punitive aspect. There might even be a case for demonetize prison labour, supply the food directly to food banks instead of for market. The phrase, "debt to society" is used often. Debts are not redeemed by suffering, generally.

MikeUt 5y ago
> The pay rate does bother me... I can see why real pay isn't done Is there a reason other than "because they can get away with it"?
- dalbasal 5y ago
  A reason why its done, or why it bothers me?
  - MikeUt 5y ago
    Why it's done.
    - Red_Leaves_Flyy 5y ago
      Prisoners need cash for commissary and prisons get less heat if they can say they payprisoners for work. Just don't look into how much prison shit costs. https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/commissary.html https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/commissary.html https://www.prisonerresource.com/interview/how-much-money-should-i-send-my-incarcerated-loved-one-an-interview-with-prison-expert-christopher-zoukis/ https://www.prisonerresource.com/interview/how-much-money-sh... https://www.prisonphonejustice.org/#:~:text=Currently%2C%20interstate%20(long%20distance),high%20rates%20at%20county%20jails https://www.prisonphonejustice.org/#:~:text=Currently%2C%20i.... https://www.prisonlegalnews.org/news/2020/dec/1/cost-communicating-prisoners-breaking-family-budgets-during-pandemic/ https://www.prisonlegalnews.org/news/2020/dec/1/cost-communi...
      - MikeUt 5y ago
        Oh, I meant why "real" pay isn't done - why they are paid a pittance.
        Red_Leaves_Flyy 5y ago
        Like I said: >prisons get less heat if they can say they payprisoners for work Who cares how much they get paid? They're prisoners! /sarcasm
kwanbix 5y ago
So, is it too crazy to think that prisoners need to pay for the accommodation, food, electricity, water, etc. that they receive while being in prison?
- Ekaros 5y ago
  I find that bit crazy. It is local society's wish to imprison them, and thus deprive them from opportunity to earn money to pay those things on open market. Thus it should be up to them to provide them with that, that is if they want them to be imprisoned. They could just let them go free, or excommunicate them...
  - dandellion 5y ago
    That's a weird thing to say. Do people in the US go around wishing prison for others? Here it's more like society is cornered into imprisoning some people in self-defense, because it hasn't figured out how to get those individuals to collaborate and live cordially with others.
    - gbear605 5y ago
      Ah yes, I really hate it when we have to put people in jail to protect ourselves from checks notes them smoking a joint.
    - Red_Leaves_Flyy 5y ago
      >Do people in the US go around wishing prison for others? Yes. Lock her "Hillary Clinton" up, and lock him "Donald trump" up are very real wishes of many Americans. The war on drugs, poverty, and in general garbage tvlike live pd, Jerry Springer, dr Phil, has helped to breed this retributional bent into American culture.
  - kwanbix 5y ago
    Society don't "wish to imprison them" they go to prison to pay for a debt with society. Society wishes that nobody committed crimes so there where no prisons. At least I believe so.
emj 5y ago
> "debt to society" My thought is that prison guards are paid because their work is a "debt to society", to force people to slave labour on a daily basis can not be good for you. In the same vein, I think society looses by systematically making prison guards slavers. I believe this is the case for ordinary prison guards as well, but in that case at least the correctional part could be believable.
roflc0ptic 5y ago
Fair points, if I were being more careful I'd probably phrase it in terms of "we should minimize incentives for regulatory capture that leads to mass incarceration." As I get older I'm increasingly less idealistic a lot more comfortable with the fact that the world is a generally irrational and unfair place, but this is a topic that still rather gets my goat.
- dalbasal 5y ago
  I think ideals are important, they just also get us into trouble when we overapply them. We forget that they're ideals, and think of them as reality. A capitalist or communist ideal(s), for example, can be good. People dealing with each other by beneficial mutual agreement. People cooperating out of social solidarity. Both exist (imperfectly) in the world. The problems come when we overapply these ideas. Justifying abusive labour practices or banking excesses because Adam Smith's village baker parable must apply to all things always. Building whole worldviews from a core ideal, as if it were F=ma. Modern prisons evolved entirely out of their ideals. Imprisonment wasn't a common punishment until modern times, and the early logic (eg bentham) was about rehabilitation. Lots of (retrospectively ugly) ideals about morality and character were at play. Lots of horrible things done in their name. The project essentially failed, and rehabilitation aspect of prison devolved into vestigial formalities. I imagine the rehabilitation ideal seemed enlightened, relative to the punitive ideals of previous eras. The US' 18th century "cruel and unusual punishment" concept related, I imagine, to these new enlightenment era ideals. A few hundred years later, and we can't even imagine a society without prisons. We're not even quite sure what they're for. At least, we don't agree on what they're for. Sorry for getting so abstract.
AaronM 5y ago
Pay them minimum wage, put the money into a savings account for them, use that money to pay off their restitution, with some money set aside for them to be able to live on release.
dfilppi 5y ago
The cost of imprisoning them is borne by taxpayers, but the imprisoned arenl responsible. So add that to their income.

MikeUt 5y ago

> The pay rate does bother me... I can see why real pay isn't done Is there a reason other than "because they can get away with it"?

dalbasal 5y ago
A reason why its done, or why it bothers me?
- MikeUt 5y ago
  Why it's done.
  - Red_Leaves_Flyy 5y ago
    Prisoners need cash for commissary and prisons get less heat if they can say they payprisoners for work. Just don't look into how much prison shit costs. https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/commissary.html https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/commissary.html https://www.prisonerresource.com/interview/how-much-money-should-i-send-my-incarcerated-loved-one-an-interview-with-prison-expert-christopher-zoukis/ https://www.prisonerresource.com/interview/how-much-money-sh... https://www.prisonphonejustice.org/#:~:text=Currently%2C%20interstate%20(long%20distance),high%20rates%20at%20county%20jails https://www.prisonphonejustice.org/#:~:text=Currently%2C%20i.... https://www.prisonlegalnews.org/news/2020/dec/1/cost-communicating-prisoners-breaking-family-budgets-during-pandemic/ https://www.prisonlegalnews.org/news/2020/dec/1/cost-communi...
    - MikeUt 5y ago
      Oh, I meant why "real" pay isn't done - why they are paid a pittance.
      - Red_Leaves_Flyy 5y ago
        Like I said: >prisons get less heat if they can say they payprisoners for work Who cares how much they get paid? They're prisoners! /sarcasm

kwanbix 5y ago

So, is it too crazy to think that prisoners need to pay for the accommodation, food, electricity, water, etc. that they receive while being in prison?

Ekaros 5y ago
I find that bit crazy. It is local society's wish to imprison them, and thus deprive them from opportunity to earn money to pay those things on open market. Thus it should be up to them to provide them with that, that is if they want them to be imprisoned. They could just let them go free, or excommunicate them...
- dandellion 5y ago
  That's a weird thing to say. Do people in the US go around wishing prison for others? Here it's more like society is cornered into imprisoning some people in self-defense, because it hasn't figured out how to get those individuals to collaborate and live cordially with others.
  - gbear605 5y ago
    Ah yes, I really hate it when we have to put people in jail to protect ourselves from checks notes them smoking a joint.
  - Red_Leaves_Flyy 5y ago
    >Do people in the US go around wishing prison for others? Yes. Lock her "Hillary Clinton" up, and lock him "Donald trump" up are very real wishes of many Americans. The war on drugs, poverty, and in general garbage tvlike live pd, Jerry Springer, dr Phil, has helped to breed this retributional bent into American culture.
- kwanbix 5y ago
  Society don't "wish to imprison them" they go to prison to pay for a debt with society. Society wishes that nobody committed crimes so there where no prisons. At least I believe so.

emj 5y ago

> "debt to society" My thought is that prison guards are paid because their work is a "debt to society", to force people to slave labour on a daily basis can not be good for you. In the same vein, I think society looses by systematically making prison guards slavers. I believe this is the case for ordinary prison guards as well, but in that case at least the correctional part could be believable.

roflc0ptic 5y ago

Fair points, if I were being more careful I'd probably phrase it in terms of "we should minimize incentives for regulatory capture that leads to mass incarceration." As I get older I'm increasingly less idealistic a lot more comfortable with the fact that the world is a generally irrational and unfair place, but this is a topic that still rather gets my goat.

dalbasal 5y ago
I think ideals are important, they just also get us into trouble when we overapply them. We forget that they're ideals, and think of them as reality. A capitalist or communist ideal(s), for example, can be good. People dealing with each other by beneficial mutual agreement. People cooperating out of social solidarity. Both exist (imperfectly) in the world. The problems come when we overapply these ideas. Justifying abusive labour practices or banking excesses because Adam Smith's village baker parable must apply to all things always. Building whole worldviews from a core ideal, as if it were F=ma. Modern prisons evolved entirely out of their ideals. Imprisonment wasn't a common punishment until modern times, and the early logic (eg bentham) was about rehabilitation. Lots of (retrospectively ugly) ideals about morality and character were at play. Lots of horrible things done in their name. The project essentially failed, and rehabilitation aspect of prison devolved into vestigial formalities. I imagine the rehabilitation ideal seemed enlightened, relative to the punitive ideals of previous eras. The US' 18th century "cruel and unusual punishment" concept related, I imagine, to these new enlightenment era ideals. A few hundred years later, and we can't even imagine a society without prisons. We're not even quite sure what they're for. At least, we don't agree on what they're for. Sorry for getting so abstract.

AaronM 5y ago

Pay them minimum wage, put the money into a savings account for them, use that money to pay off their restitution, with some money set aside for them to be able to live on release.

dfilppi 5y ago

The cost of imprisoning them is borne by taxpayers, but the imprisoned arenl responsible. So add that to their income.