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I've caught the exceptional by being a commited teacher. You notice that they are ahead of the pack, by different signs: some make great questions in class, oth

I've caught the exceptional by being a commited teacher. You notice that they are ahead of the pack, by different signs: some make great questions in class, others barely say a word but utterly ace the exams, others are incredibile driven and tell you about their interests, others aren't, but when challenged they respond with interesting solutions. Of course, that may not be a scalable way to find them. But if you had all the teachers in line with that "pay attention to the exceptional" objective, you'd probably find more than the current[0] "grind students forward into formal education" approach. [0] I say this being fully aware that may not be the particular case in a region/group, but it certainly seems like the broadly taken "strategy" by most of the education system where I live

TeMPOraL 5y ago
> Of course, that may not be a scalable way to find them. That's the crux, though - the common theme behind failures of modern education, among other things. It seems to me that becoming a developed country comes with the desperate need to make everything scalable, and losing the ability to do things that do not scale.
alex_smart 5y ago
The problem with this approach is that it is too dependent on the goodness and honesty of said teachers. Anytime you rely more on human beings, you also bring in the typical human problems like self-interest, politics, biases, connections etc. Your approach is not going to work in a country like India. We are a resource-starved nation where people have the mentality of securing every little advantage they can find for themselves without spending half a thought about social consequences. What happens if I am a talented student but I go to a school in a smaller town and references from teachers there carry a lot less weight that teachers from famous schools. What happens if my math teacher wants to promote a student of his own caste over other more qualified students. Will secondary-school teachers with laughably low salaries not feel incentivized to sell their recommendations to the highest bidder? In a country where most systems are fraught with such human problems from head to toe, the beauty of JEE is that it is a completely objective system.
- nindalf 5y ago
  > The beauty of JEE Only a person who did well in JEE would say this. You talk about disadvantages for rural students. This is important, because the vast majority of people in India live in villages or small towns, not the big cities. Tell me though, how many students from villages and small towns do well in JEE without moving to a coaching centre in a bigger town? Personal anecdotes aside, you'll find that urban students are disproportionately represented in the top engineering institutes. There are some rural students certainly, but not like the 80% you'd expect if the system was truly egalitarian. You rail against the possibility of some students getting ahead because of advantages other than academic performance, but fail to consider that the current system is also based on the lottery of birth.
  - alex_smart 5y ago
    >Only a person who did well in JEE would say this. Please forgive me for considering, in a country fraught from top to bottom with corruption and casteism, an objective system that offers an opportunity for young, talented students, irrespective of their backgrounds, to devote two years of their lives to serious study and meaningfully transform their lives "beautiful". It MUST be because of my single-digit rank. >Tell me though, how many students from villages and small towns do well in JEE without moving to a coaching centre in a bigger town? If you count Kota, there are plenty of students from small towns who do well in JEE by moving to a coaching center in a smaller town. Why is "without moving to a different town" such an important consideration? Rural areas almost by definition don't have any scale. >There are some rural students certainly, but not like the 80% you'd expect if the system was truly egalitarian. Most rural students don't even have access to good primary schools. There is a huge information asymmetry between people from villages and big cities. That is not a problem an engineering exam can solve. You replace JEE with a less objective system, and much fewer rural/small-town students will get in.
    - random314 5y ago
      > irrespective of their backgrounds, to devote two years of their lives to serious study I don't know how you can make such a statement with a single digit rank. JEE offers the middle and upper middle class an opportunity to leap into the rich class. What percentage of India is middle class? How many lower middle class and poor folks can send their kids to kota to study for JEE? How much would it cost the Indian government to develop detailed coaching videos by IIT professors and upload it for free to YouTube? Yes JEE is a good entrance exam, but let's not romanticize it as something that can cross boundaries of caste and class. If so, we can also claim that capitalism doesn't care about your caste and class either! The harrassment faced by students of lower caste who get in through affirmative action is also well known.
deleted 5y ago
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TeMPOraL 5y ago

> Of course, that may not be a scalable way to find them. That's the crux, though - the common theme behind failures of modern education, among other things. It seems to me that becoming a developed country comes with the desperate need to make everything scalable, and losing the ability to do things that do not scale.

alex_smart 5y ago

The problem with this approach is that it is too dependent on the goodness and honesty of said teachers. Anytime you rely more on human beings, you also bring in the typical human problems like self-interest, politics, biases, connections etc. Your approach is not going to work in a country like India. We are a resource-starved nation where people have the mentality of securing every little advantage they can find for themselves without spending half a thought about social consequences. What happens if I am a talented student but I go to a school in a smaller town and references from teachers there carry a lot less weight that teachers from famous schools. What happens if my math teacher wants to promote a student of his own caste over other more qualified students. Will secondary-school teachers with laughably low salaries not feel incentivized to sell their recommendations to the highest bidder? In a country where most systems are fraught with such human problems from head to toe, the beauty of JEE is that it is a completely objective system.

nindalf 5y ago
> The beauty of JEE Only a person who did well in JEE would say this. You talk about disadvantages for rural students. This is important, because the vast majority of people in India live in villages or small towns, not the big cities. Tell me though, how many students from villages and small towns do well in JEE without moving to a coaching centre in a bigger town? Personal anecdotes aside, you'll find that urban students are disproportionately represented in the top engineering institutes. There are some rural students certainly, but not like the 80% you'd expect if the system was truly egalitarian. You rail against the possibility of some students getting ahead because of advantages other than academic performance, but fail to consider that the current system is also based on the lottery of birth.
- alex_smart 5y ago
  >Only a person who did well in JEE would say this. Please forgive me for considering, in a country fraught from top to bottom with corruption and casteism, an objective system that offers an opportunity for young, talented students, irrespective of their backgrounds, to devote two years of their lives to serious study and meaningfully transform their lives "beautiful". It MUST be because of my single-digit rank. >Tell me though, how many students from villages and small towns do well in JEE without moving to a coaching centre in a bigger town? If you count Kota, there are plenty of students from small towns who do well in JEE by moving to a coaching center in a smaller town. Why is "without moving to a different town" such an important consideration? Rural areas almost by definition don't have any scale. >There are some rural students certainly, but not like the 80% you'd expect if the system was truly egalitarian. Most rural students don't even have access to good primary schools. There is a huge information asymmetry between people from villages and big cities. That is not a problem an engineering exam can solve. You replace JEE with a less objective system, and much fewer rural/small-town students will get in.
  - random314 5y ago
    > irrespective of their backgrounds, to devote two years of their lives to serious study I don't know how you can make such a statement with a single digit rank. JEE offers the middle and upper middle class an opportunity to leap into the rich class. What percentage of India is middle class? How many lower middle class and poor folks can send their kids to kota to study for JEE? How much would it cost the Indian government to develop detailed coaching videos by IIT professors and upload it for free to YouTube? Yes JEE is a good entrance exam, but let's not romanticize it as something that can cross boundaries of caste and class. If so, we can also claim that capitalism doesn't care about your caste and class either! The harrassment faced by students of lower caste who get in through affirmative action is also well known.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]