3 ms·

I wish Matrix would instead focus on fixing all the existing encryption usability issues instead of these new features: https://github.com/vector-im/element-we

by ldarby 5y ago

I wish Matrix would instead focus on fixing all the existing encryption usability issues instead of these new features: https://github.com/vector-im/element-web/issues?q=label%3AA-E2EE-Key-Backup+sort%3Aupdated-desc+is%3Aopen https://github.com/vector-im/element-web/issues?q=label%3AA-... I would love to migrate my family to Element (and also friends, and eventually also recommend it to employers if they're ever choosing something other than Teams) but can't until it's reliable as webmail. I also wrote this comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25271512 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25271512 "Once Element is mature enough (and I'm sorry, but looking at the incoming issues on https://github.com/vector-im/element-web/issues?q=sort%3Aupd https://github.com/vector-im/element-web/issues?q=sort%3Aupd..., it doesn't look like it yet), then hopefully more companies will start considering it." I get that E2E means it cannot be as simple as email, and I can handle the extra training that's needed, but not for figuring out all these known issues and attempting to prevent people hitting them, or having to handle the situation if they do.

anticensor 5y ago
E2EE is opt-in per-room.
- ldarby 5y ago
  The entire point of Matrix is that it has E2E. If E2E isn't a requirement then my prefered communication tool is email.
viccuad 5y ago
Enabling by default: - cross-signing (so users verify their own devices themselves, and you verify users only once by verifying their public key, regardless of how many times they add or update devices) - and key backup (so moving between devices doesn't need manual polling for other devices' keys the first time for decrypting messages) would be a great step forward. Those are there, but they are disabled by default yet, which is a disservice.
- Arathorn 5y ago
  cross-signing & key backup are enabled by default, and have been for a year or so? you have to explicitly opt out by repeatedly hitting the 'skip' button. however, the UX is certainly more complicated than it should be, and we're due to rework it in the coming months.
  - viccuad 5y ago
    Woops. I may be dealing with friends & family that joined prior to that. I wonder if one could get prompted again for enabling cross-signing & backup once you open a new client (I don't think it happens right now). That would help migrating everyone to enabling it.
archseer 5y ago
The iOS client is miles behind their Android client too. > On iOS, we're still busy implementing Spaces. However if you join rooms which belong to Spaces, you’ll still be able to talk in them.
Arathorn 5y ago
So there is a finite number of active contributors to Element, and we have to prioritise what to work on. While E2EE is not perfect (the UX needs another major iteration and we are still hunting rare edge cases where messages cannot be decrypted) in practice it's usable day to day. We consciously chose to prioritise building out Spaces over the last few months over E2EE UX as otherwise there's a risk of Discord becoming the de-facto home for open source projects, much as Slack started to be a few years ago - which would be catastrophic for open standards-based communication like Matrix. Meanwhile, the cryptography team chose to focus primarily on implementing next-generation encryption (IETF's MLS) on Matrix rather than polishing the current behaviour - given MLS should both radically improve scalability, but also fix the majority of the edge conditions which are problematic for today's E2EE, or at least entirely switch bugs in the existing implementation for entirely different failure modes in the new implementation. We showed off MLS over Matrix last week (https://youtu.be/xn0fzyimycs?t=248 https://youtu.be/xn0fzyimycs?t=248), and we're now finishing the decentralisation component of it (https://matrix.uhoreg.ca/mls/ordering.html https://matrix.uhoreg.ca/mls/ordering.html). Eitherway, now that the Spaces beta is out the door, we're catching up on other UX issues, including E2EE. We also have more folks being paid fulltime by Element to work on encryption (amongst other stuff) starting in July. Talking of which, if anyone wants to get paid to make this happen sooner, Element is hiring at https://apply.workable.com/elementio https://apply.workable.com/elementio.
- ldarby 5y ago
  Thanks for the response, that sounds good and makes sense, I guess I'll continue waiting... My family regularly does things like forget which browser they last used, or re-install windows, or otherwise mysteriously have all browser settings disappear, etc - all things that seem to be related to those key-backup issues.
  - atatatat 5y ago
    Put it on their phone or tablet. PCs are no longer the right device for "mom and dad".
- natural219 5y ago
NoGravitas 5y ago
I'd love to see those encryption usability issues fixed, but I do want to say that e2ee on Matrix is less bad than on anything comparable (like OMEMO on XMPP). I like XMPP because of its speed, but you really can't combine OMEMO and multi-device unless you just don't mind having parts of your message history unreadable on some devices. The key backup and session validation in Matrix/Element usually solves this issue. Unfortunately, the complexity means that even other Matrix clients that support e2ee don't support key backup and session validation, which means you either stick to Element on every platform, or live with the same history issues as on XMPP.

by ldarby 5y ago

anticensor 5y ago

E2EE is opt-in per-room.

ldarby 5y ago
The entire point of Matrix is that it has E2E. If E2E isn't a requirement then my prefered communication tool is email.

viccuad 5y ago

Enabling by default: - cross-signing (so users verify their own devices themselves, and you verify users only once by verifying their public key, regardless of how many times they add or update devices) - and key backup (so moving between devices doesn't need manual polling for other devices' keys the first time for decrypting messages) would be a great step forward. Those are there, but they are disabled by default yet, which is a disservice.

Arathorn 5y ago
cross-signing & key backup are enabled by default, and have been for a year or so? you have to explicitly opt out by repeatedly hitting the 'skip' button. however, the UX is certainly more complicated than it should be, and we're due to rework it in the coming months.
- viccuad 5y ago
  Woops. I may be dealing with friends & family that joined prior to that. I wonder if one could get prompted again for enabling cross-signing & backup once you open a new client (I don't think it happens right now). That would help migrating everyone to enabling it.

archseer 5y ago

The iOS client is miles behind their Android client too. > On iOS, we're still busy implementing Spaces. However if you join rooms which belong to Spaces, you’ll still be able to talk in them.

Arathorn 5y ago

So there is a finite number of active contributors to Element, and we have to prioritise what to work on. While E2EE is not perfect (the UX needs another major iteration and we are still hunting rare edge cases where messages cannot be decrypted) in practice it's usable day to day. We consciously chose to prioritise building out Spaces over the last few months over E2EE UX as otherwise there's a risk of Discord becoming the de-facto home for open source projects, much as Slack started to be a few years ago - which would be catastrophic for open standards-based communication like Matrix. Meanwhile, the cryptography team chose to focus primarily on implementing next-generation encryption (IETF's MLS) on Matrix rather than polishing the current behaviour - given MLS should both radically improve scalability, but also fix the majority of the edge conditions which are problematic for today's E2EE, or at least entirely switch bugs in the existing implementation for entirely different failure modes in the new implementation. We showed off MLS over Matrix last week (https://youtu.be/xn0fzyimycs?t=248 https://youtu.be/xn0fzyimycs?t=248), and we're now finishing the decentralisation component of it (https://matrix.uhoreg.ca/mls/ordering.html https://matrix.uhoreg.ca/mls/ordering.html). Eitherway, now that the Spaces beta is out the door, we're catching up on other UX issues, including E2EE. We also have more folks being paid fulltime by Element to work on encryption (amongst other stuff) starting in July. Talking of which, if anyone wants to get paid to make this happen sooner, Element is hiring at https://apply.workable.com/elementio https://apply.workable.com/elementio.

ldarby 5y ago
Thanks for the response, that sounds good and makes sense, I guess I'll continue waiting... My family regularly does things like forget which browser they last used, or re-install windows, or otherwise mysteriously have all browser settings disappear, etc - all things that seem to be related to those key-backup issues.
- atatatat 5y ago
  Put it on their phone or tablet. PCs are no longer the right device for "mom and dad".
natural219 5y ago

NoGravitas 5y ago

I'd love to see those encryption usability issues fixed, but I do want to say that e2ee on Matrix is less bad than on anything comparable (like OMEMO on XMPP). I like XMPP because of its speed, but you really can't combine OMEMO and multi-device unless you just don't mind having parts of your message history unreadable on some devices. The key backup and session validation in Matrix/Element usually solves this issue. Unfortunately, the complexity means that even other Matrix clients that support e2ee don't support key backup and session validation, which means you either stick to Element on every platform, or live with the same history issues as on XMPP.