4 ms·

While I love, love, love retrocomputing I don't understand why 99% of it is "retro-next" computing - instead of designing computer from some era people like to

While I love, love, love retrocomputing I don't understand why 99% of it is "retro-next" computing - instead of designing computer from some era people like to design much beefier next-gen machines. 2MB of RAM? 640x480? Why not use Amiga instead? Designing a machine that would beat c64 is insanely appealing to me. Designing a machine that would beat c64 because it came out a decade later and had larger ram chips and much larger gate count in a video chip? Meh...

selfhoster11 5y ago
At a guess, it's harder to get your hands on weaker chips in larger quantities. Larger chips are dirt-cheap, while for weaker ones you'd either have to raid NOS from warehouses, or fab it yourself (which is expensive, and sometimes outright impossible - I don't think we've got the tech to fab a SID chip any more, for instance).
- talideon 5y ago
  The SID's major difficulties are due to it being an analogue-digitial hybrid. That's why most of the efforts have went down the emulation route, though there's apparently an FPGA SID replacement in development that's pretty close. The original 6581 is super impractical as each of those is different, but the later 8580 is much more practical to rebuild in FPGA form, even if emulating the analogue side is still awkward.
  - selfhoster11 5y ago
    That's part of what I was referring to. The analogue-digital hybrid is one of the things that's difficult to replicate with the current manufacturing technology for fabbing new chips.
- chalcolithic 5y ago
  That is totally understandable, but do they have to use the whole chip?
talideon 5y ago
Most of isn't "retro-next" computing. There are a _very_ small number of projects of that kind, most notably the X16, the Mega65, and the Spectrum Next. The Maximites might fall into that, as might the MiST and MiSTer boards, but that's debatable. What _most_ people do are extensions to existing hardware (like the Amiga Vampire), replacements for failing chips (which might also include extra features because there's space still left on the FPGA), &c. Arguably, I wouldn't include the Mega65 in the list because it's meant to be more or less what was intended to be released as the Commodore 65, which basically leaves the X16 and Spectrum Next. The X16 and Spectrum Next are meant to be idealised forms of the respective machines they're based on, with the Next maintaining compatibility. What most people build are things like Z80-based SBCs that behave like the CP/M machines of the past, but can take advantage of things like CompactFlash and higher clock speeds, but are essentially period accurate otherwise. Personally, I'd love to build a Jupiter Ace with all the random glue logic reduced down to a PLD, expanded enough to support an ~80-column display.
- chalcolithic 5y ago
  Ok, it means that projects that manage to get some publicity are "retro-next".
codeflo 5y ago
That sounds interesting, what are the exact rules of this game? Are you only allowed to use components that actually existed at the time, or ones that might have existed? I.e., do you have to use a 6502, or can you design a better CPU, using modern knowledge, but considering old fabrication techniques?
- chalcolithic 5y ago
  Either way is fine, I think.
alenmilk 5y ago
The Commander X16 is a computer that you should be able to understand how it works. You should be able to start the computer and poke away at the hardware and see results immediately. The Amiga is better and more usable, but it is a lot of complicated hardware.
ChrisRR 5y ago
Part of the appeal of old school computing was always lusting after the next computer in magazines that was way out of your price range. It's not like nowadays where an unnafordable PC plays games at a better framerate than what you have now. New computers were a huge leap in power. So people want to evoke the spirit of their dream computers. Hardware that they always wanted but could never afford (or often never even existed)
ogurechny 5y ago
Well, electronics-oriented owners have built “next” systems even back in the '80s (and '90s) (and '00s): overclocked (non video signal related parts), added memory (in a dozen of more or less incompatible ways), added expansion boards with a lot more powerful hardware, etc. Usually, the more someone was into it, the more unique their configuration was. So it continues to this day. At the same time, anyone can actually go the pure retro way, and spend a couple of days soldering the period-correct home computer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rWCYo1UcOQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rWCYo1UcOQ

selfhoster11 5y ago

At a guess, it's harder to get your hands on weaker chips in larger quantities. Larger chips are dirt-cheap, while for weaker ones you'd either have to raid NOS from warehouses, or fab it yourself (which is expensive, and sometimes outright impossible - I don't think we've got the tech to fab a SID chip any more, for instance).

talideon 5y ago
The SID's major difficulties are due to it being an analogue-digitial hybrid. That's why most of the efforts have went down the emulation route, though there's apparently an FPGA SID replacement in development that's pretty close. The original 6581 is super impractical as each of those is different, but the later 8580 is much more practical to rebuild in FPGA form, even if emulating the analogue side is still awkward.
- selfhoster11 5y ago
  That's part of what I was referring to. The analogue-digital hybrid is one of the things that's difficult to replicate with the current manufacturing technology for fabbing new chips.
chalcolithic 5y ago
That is totally understandable, but do they have to use the whole chip?

talideon 5y ago

Most of isn't "retro-next" computing. There are a _very_ small number of projects of that kind, most notably the X16, the Mega65, and the Spectrum Next. The Maximites might fall into that, as might the MiST and MiSTer boards, but that's debatable. What _most_ people do are extensions to existing hardware (like the Amiga Vampire), replacements for failing chips (which might also include extra features because there's space still left on the FPGA), &c. Arguably, I wouldn't include the Mega65 in the list because it's meant to be more or less what was intended to be released as the Commodore 65, which basically leaves the X16 and Spectrum Next. The X16 and Spectrum Next are meant to be idealised forms of the respective machines they're based on, with the Next maintaining compatibility. What most people build are things like Z80-based SBCs that behave like the CP/M machines of the past, but can take advantage of things like CompactFlash and higher clock speeds, but are essentially period accurate otherwise. Personally, I'd love to build a Jupiter Ace with all the random glue logic reduced down to a PLD, expanded enough to support an ~80-column display.

chalcolithic 5y ago
Ok, it means that projects that manage to get some publicity are "retro-next".

codeflo 5y ago

That sounds interesting, what are the exact rules of this game? Are you only allowed to use components that actually existed at the time, or ones that might have existed? I.e., do you have to use a 6502, or can you design a better CPU, using modern knowledge, but considering old fabrication techniques?

chalcolithic 5y ago
Either way is fine, I think.

alenmilk 5y ago

The Commander X16 is a computer that you should be able to understand how it works. You should be able to start the computer and poke away at the hardware and see results immediately. The Amiga is better and more usable, but it is a lot of complicated hardware.

ChrisRR 5y ago

Part of the appeal of old school computing was always lusting after the next computer in magazines that was way out of your price range. It's not like nowadays where an unnafordable PC plays games at a better framerate than what you have now. New computers were a huge leap in power. So people want to evoke the spirit of their dream computers. Hardware that they always wanted but could never afford (or often never even existed)

ogurechny 5y ago

Well, electronics-oriented owners have built “next” systems even back in the '80s (and '90s) (and '00s): overclocked (non video signal related parts), added memory (in a dozen of more or less incompatible ways), added expansion boards with a lot more powerful hardware, etc. Usually, the more someone was into it, the more unique their configuration was. So it continues to this day. At the same time, anyone can actually go the pure retro way, and spend a couple of days soldering the period-correct home computer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rWCYo1UcOQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rWCYo1UcOQ