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Show HN: How does the French health pass work?
- iamarealperson 5y agoI find the principle of a "health pass" a little disturbing. Do we want to live in a society where we have to prove something about our health in order to attend events ?
- mam3 5y agoIts been the case internationally for decades. Yellow fever in african countries for example
- lovasoa 5y agoShowing a pass every time you attend any kind of event is a bit more intrusive. But in the end, I do agree with you that there is nothing fundamentally wrong with the approach.
- preordained 5y agoYellow fever is debilitating at a very high rate...
- elcomet 5y agoCovid is highly lethal for some category of people..
- preordained 5y agoNote: I corrected my comment to say "debilitating", although relatively "lethal" is probably not inaccurate. Is not the vaccine available for anyone who wants it? The point of the Yellow Fever vaccine is to get it when traveling to a country where it is prevalent and you don't have the immunity of the local population, and not to bring it back to an unprotected population.
- elcomet 5y agoSo I'm not sure what your point is. Both diseases are dangerous. Yellow fever vaccine is mandatory when you travel in a country with high risk. Covid vaccine will be mandatory when you want to go in situations / places with high risk. So why would you be against covid health pass and not yellow fever health pass ?
- mam3 5y agoHe is saying in general YF vaccine is mandatory when you PASS THROUGH a high risk country (such as kenya) BEFORE going to the coubtry requiring the vaccine (such as tanzania)
- highmastdon 5y agoWhich properties define that category? Edit: the weak and frail, the ones with multiple comorbidities (avg 4)? The ones that are vulnerable for any virus in general?
- nicoburns 5y agoI think there's a distinction to be made between diseases that are infectious and those that are not. If you have cancer and you want to attend an event, that's nobody's business because they're not going to catch it from you. If however the disease you have is serious and highly-transmissible then that's another matter entirely.
- mytailorisrich 5y agoIn general no, we don't. But pragmatically in the current circumstances this seems to be the best option (or least bad) until things are sorted.
- SpaceNinja 5y agoDo you think governments are going to give up their power after implementing digital passes?
- mytailorisrich 5y agoYes. There is no reason for people to keep being tested all the time for Covid if/when that is no longer a risk. Once/if the risk has passed this will all stop because there is neither a justification nor value for governments to continue. It's a little paranoid to claim that governments are continuously trying to create totalitarian states. Or that, in any case, they can do what they want, they can't. We already see that with all the debates on these passes and safety measures put in place. They are a hard sell to the public and everyone's watching. There is already huge pressure not to have them for a day longer than absolutely necessary and politically governments will have to stop as soon as possible.
- nanis 5y ago> It's a little paranoid to claim that governments are continuously trying to create totalitarian states. What in human history makes you think that?
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- SpaceNinja 5y agoThere is evidence of governments using power beyond their intended use to create totalitarian states.
- xdennis 5y ago
- underdeserver 5y agoIf the alternative is death, sure.
- stdclass 5y agoWhich it certainly is not, if you look at the numbers.
- maxerickson 5y agoPeople sick with corona going to events will clearly cause statistical deaths, it's not ambiguous.
- idoubtit 5y agoPeople who drive (especially SUV) will clearly cause statistical deaths, it's not ambiguous.
- maxerickson 5y agoSure, we make all sorts of trade offs. The other poster is arguing that people should people able to choose for themselves whether they risk infection, which isn't the point of these passes, they are a community health measure.
- input_sh 5y agoCars don't infect other cars on the road.
- preordained 5y agoNeither do people anymore, or at least those who aren't comfortable with that risk, since the vaccine is widely available for all... If the vaccine works, why in the world do you care who doesn't want to take it?
- 5y ago
- dzhiurgis 5y agoYes. Are you familiar with what public health is? Such restrictions are so people are encouraged to get vaccinated. Taking something away so far is most effective way to convince people.
- hntroll1221 5y agoThat'd be placing people under duress to undergo a medical procedure, which is a violation of the Nuremberg Code. Leftists are going for internal passport systems and repeating the mistakes of the Nazis. How much more would a reasonable person need to see before becoming concerned about the direction of the world lately?
- DanBC 5y ago> Leftists are going for internal passport systems and repeating the mistakes of the Nazis. You lose any credibility when you compare compulsory vaccination to genocidal campaigns that killed 6-7million Jewish people and 2-4million disabled people, lgbt people, and Gypsy, Roma and Traveller people.
- ForHackernews 5y agoGoing to a football match is not a human right. I don't see any problem with requiring vaccinations before attending big crowded events with lots of people.
- frenchman99 5y agoThat's not what "convincing" is. That's "coercing". If you want to convince, do it with data and logic, not by taking away rights.
- DeliriumTrigger 5y agoI guess you never traveled internationally or to countries which have mandatory vaccinations. Polio, Yellow Fever etc.
- raverbashing 5y agoYes I do want the events that I attend to not be attended by self-centered people who think "their rights" (to an enclosed space during a pandemic) trump the collective safety of the place. So no, what I do find disturbing is that some people prefer to spread deadly diseases because they can't be bothered with the collective
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- tdeck 5y agoI already have to show my ID to get into some events, and that has my full name, DoB, weight, address, and organ donor status on it. Date of vaccination hardly seems more sensitive than any of those. I could certainly imagine categories of health data that raise concerns but honestly this isn't it.
- wazari972 5y ago> But starting from that, can we implement what seemed to be the initial goal stated in the government's document ? why not simply having 2 QR codes, one full, one light ... ?
- lovasoa 5y agoWhat would you put in the "light" QR code ? If you put the date of the test, then the organizer can access it. If you don't, then they can't check whether your test is recent enough to be authorized to attend their event.
- flal_ 5y agoLike the original author states, than can't be done without a trusted 3rd party ( say a token with a service telling you whether the pass is valid at current date)
- WayToDoor 5y agoBecause - People would have to know which QR to show - Organizers could get more access to data by telling users "not that QR, the other one" ?
- xdennis 5y ago> citizens will have to present the pass either as a printed document, or a code in the french government's TousAntiCovid mobile application What about people who don't have phones or printers?
- WayToDoor 5y agoThey give you the paper at the vaccination center or when getting your test result.
- carstenhag 5y agoIn Germany this paper is just that, a paper. It has 0 safety measurements. You can get blank ones for cheap, via the internet or your doctor. From Biontech or the other vaccine manufacturers you can get the blank charge number thingies which you can then stick onto the paper. You have to fake a signage but nobody can tell whether it's fake or not.
- WayToDoor 5y agoThen can it really be trusted at a time when people fake vaccination cards in the US, lie about COVID and don't even wear masks ?
- carstenhag 5y agoThe paper one: nope. The digital one: Supposedly yes, you can trust it, but there needs to be a way for already-vaccinated people to get the digital one. And how that is verified... well... not clear yet, but likely via the physical one.
- tomjen3 5y agoThe danish one has even less safety features, because it is your choice whether to use a printed document (which you can download as a PDF that you can then edit), through the official app or, by the SMS that was sent to you at the test place where you took your test. You can trivially fake either, but you can also just claim you are excempt. Almost nobody is, of course, but they are not allowed to ask for documentation and must let the doubt come to your benefit. In practice, this works mostly. Probably because people don't want to fake their tests, which is a serious crime.
- semerda 5y agoGattaca. I’m curious tho where does it stop. For example, US stopped TB vax long time ago while half of EU continues. Those born in EU bear the scars on their arms from the vax. Sure TB isn’t as prevalent in the US as it used to be but there’s nothing stopping it from coming on a plane. Bacterial infections of the lungs are very hard to fight esp with the increase of antibiotic resistance. A single cough from a TB infected individual used to be a death sentence to the receiver (prior to antibiotics). So where does all this start and end. If we are serious about health while traveling then let’s go all in across the germ spectrum and see what happens ;-) I’d love to see planes reporting on cabin air quality as well. I’m sure I’m not the only one who gets sick (pre Covid) when traveling long haul.
- maxerickson 5y agoIt'll probably stop shortly after France achieves a high enough level of vaccination to (more or less) stop community spread. Based on the UK, Israel and the US, 60% looks like it gets you pretty close to that.
- jonnylynchy 5y agoWhich is where we are now apparently, 60%! https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/video/us-reaches-60-adults-dose-vaccine-77758242 https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/video/us-reaches-60-adults-d...
- maxerickson 5y agoRight. The outbreak in Michigan is subsiding even as people are doing less mitigation, for instance. With ~75 million children in the US, we aren't quite at 60% of the population though. Hopefully the number of vaccinated goes up quite a bit more.
- admissionsguy 5y agoYup, even Denmark has recently announced plans to phase out the vaccine pass in a matter of months.
- dzhiurgis 5y agoI don't get it why we can't store something in centralised database, provided it's encrypted via key that only user has (NFC or on QR code itself). Present one key for events, another one for airlines.
- mlok 5y ago"In the backend, it has a small SQL database which stores no personal information: just the list of invitees and their status." This status is private medical information : in France (and all Europe probably) it is illegal to store these datas, unless you use specialized "health datas secure hosting". You cannot legally do it yourself this way. French Official Documents : Health Datas Hosting : https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/codes/article_lc/LEGIARTI000033862549/ https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/codes/article_lc/LEGIARTI0000... Health Datas : https://www.cnil.fr/fr/quest-ce-ce-quune-donnee-de-sante https://www.cnil.fr/fr/quest-ce-ce-quune-donnee-de-sante
- mytailorisrich 5y agoStoring name, DOB, test date, test result in the QR code is a good solution IMHO and indeed using a database as a private organisation is fraught with problems. Name and DOB are reasonably needed to assert the person's identity. Especially in France everyone carries an ID card so people can show ID and certificate together. Safeguarding private information is important but some must be disclosed as necessary.
- seszett 5y agoWhat surprises me is that the person's address is stored there. It seems to me absolutely unnecessary, and I'm not even sure where they get it from as the address on record by Social Security is not supposed to be disclosed even to health professionals. I think this is only the address one gives freely to the vaccination/test center and which is not checked by anyone. I still can't think of any case where it would be useful in conjunction with your vaccination status.
- mytailorisrich 5y agoAccording to the article the address is not included in the 2D-DOC QR code. I agree with you that it's not useful information for the purpose of a "health pass" used to gain access to venues and events. On the other hand, as a matter of Covid response strategy and enforcement of any restrictions (so for the authorities at large) it is very useful to know where a person that has tested positive lives.
- hubadu 5y agoA year ago in France the health pass was publicly dismissed by officials as a conspiracy theory that belonged to sci-fi literature. Six months later it became "well there are pros and cons". And now here we are, on the verge of enacting another CCP style measure that breaks multiple constitutional rights. I'm sickened by the accelerating pace at which we are implementing every totalitarians' wet dream. The best of 1984, Brave New World and Fahrenheit 451 combined. A Japanese documentary filmed in Wuhan to illustrate my point: https://youtu.be/N4ABOJ1y5iM?t=704 https://youtu.be/N4ABOJ1y5iM?t=704
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- ad404b8a372f2b9 5y agoIt's been the same pattern for all Covid measures, it's so tiring. Still I'm thankful we never ended up having age-based or disability-based curfews because it seemed to be heading that way for a while.
- JeanMarcS 5y agoThis app/website have nothing to do with official french government or authorities. It's an open source project [0] for those who eventualy don't want to use official app [0] https://github.com/lovasoa/sanipasse https://github.com/lovasoa/sanipasse
- lovasoa 5y agoI think it's made clear in the article, isn't it ?