4 ms·

I think "developer shortage" depends on your expectations of developer skills. I currently recruit a lot for several different positions and there is no shortag

I think "developer shortage" depends on your expectations of developer skills. I currently recruit a lot for several different positions and there is no shortage of applications. But 50% can't do FizzBuzz and many do not fit into our environment of a small team where we do not need (can't use) specialists (yet). If you only want to recruit from the "best 20%" [1], you can only recruit the best 20% of the people who apply to your job offerings, which is different from the best 20% of the market - most founders I know want to recruit the best 20% of the market though and fail. [1] It's unclear to me what "best" means.

cupofcoffee 5y ago
I honestly doubt that 50% of applicants can't do FizzBuzz.
- KingOfCoders 5y ago
  It might be 40% or 55%, I don't keep records [1], but I'm 100% sure it's not exactly 50%. Numbers are rarely shared, so I have a lot of questions, what is your ration when recruiting? Lower? Below 20%? If you do not use FizzBuzz what to you do use then? Fixing bugs? Homework project (do you find it on StackOverflow afterwards?)? What is the ratio there? Or don't you check for coding skills? (One of the old blog posts talks about 90%). The ratio depends on where your job ads are I assume. If your ad is on some remote only website, you get more applicants but also a higher ratio. If you only work with recruiting agencies, from my experience the ratio is lower, but you pay EUR 20k commission. [1] Sadly I can't get our HR software to track these ratios over channels.
- wting 5y ago
  At a previous company we asked candidates to calculate the median value given an array of numbers. We also gave them test cases that covered 100% of what we wanted. 23% of applicants could not produce a working solution.
  - KingOfCoders 5y ago
    I will try that one in my interviews.
- unscaled 5y ago
  Joel Spolsky has explained how it's possible before: https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2005/01/27/news-58/ https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2005/01/27/news-58/
  - cupofcoffee 5y ago
    It really isn't possible. Every single CS person I know of is doing LC.
sangnoir 5y ago
I think everyone who's complaining about how the developer shortage is fake should spend some time sitting on the other side of the interview table. Author's faith in people's innate goodness won't last beyond the 3rd interview/screen. I've been on both sides of bad interviews: sometimes it's a mismatch, or the interviewee is having a bad day, but sometimes, the interviewee is just bad. Filtering out bad candidates are the best outcome, the absolute worst time-sink for everyone involved is getting a bad hire. In a past life, I joined an organization, and my cohort included a bonafide conman with no prior experience, or requisite skill. The man could talk himself into (or out of) anything. It took a surprisingly long time for the team to realize he was getting other team members to do his work for him in the guise of "needing help" (several weeks).
- Cheecheepoopoo 5y ago
  > The man could talk himself into (or out of) anything Why is he in the tech industry?
  - sangnoir 5y ago
    I doubt he's still in industry, but my guess was it provided good, "easy" money while he was laying low for previous misdeeds. When I said "bonafide conman" - I meant he was using a fake identity and was quite literally on the run. The police got in touch with the org not too long afterwards asking after him - he was re-using an alias the police knew, and his employment/background-check likely popped him right back onto their radar. The police had wanted to set up a sting operation, but found no takers on staff - his alleged past crimes were linked to organized crime, so I can't say if the fears were overblown.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
Banana699 5y ago
>50% can't do FizzBuzz How can someone possibly call themselves a programmer (let alone a developer applying for a job) when they can't even pseudo something like fizzbuzz ? How can they use any API, tool or even copy code from SO without knowing how to write a foreach and a conditional inside?
- KingOfCoders 5y ago
  I wonder too, and I do not know. From some developers I've worked with in the past, they ask their colleagues a lot, try cut & paste until it works and ask detailed questions on StackOverflow or similar sites. The bigger the team the longer they can stay with the company until they are made to leave. In some very large companies I've worked with, with large teams, they stay forever even when colleagues are unhappy with their performance. In those companies it is often more important to have all positions closed than have (good) developers in every position. When looking at CVs - not scientifically - some stay only some months with a company or stayed for a long time with a large enterprise.
- mLuby 5y ago
  > How can someone possibly call themselves a programmer… when they can't even pseudo something like fizzbuzz? Agreed. On the other hand, I can count the number of times I've used modulo professionally on one hand, so I wouldn't be too shocked to encounter a competent programmer who had't heard of it.
  - KingOfCoders 5y ago
    If I do FizzBuzz people can invent an API function rest_of_division() if needed, or can_be_divided_by(). FizzBuzz (or something more complex) for me is a coding check, not an API/syntax knowledge test.
  - LorenPechtel 5y ago
    You can do fizzbuzz without it, it's just not as efficient.
  - rcxdude 5y ago
LorenPechtel 5y ago
Yes, this is what he's really missing. I think he has a lot of good points (but not all--sorry, but while you can get the basics of a new language quickly the main time cost is learning the library) but he utterly overlooks all the trash. The companies doing the hiring see a lot of trash applying and take all sorts of steps to filter it out. The trash keeps applying everywhere, the companies try even harder to filter it. The companies see the filters as saving them time on interviewing trash, they don't see the good ones being filtered out. I'd like to see some sort of meaningful certification of developer skills, but it would be awfully hard to do without being subject to being gamed.

cupofcoffee 5y ago

I honestly doubt that 50% of applicants can't do FizzBuzz.

KingOfCoders 5y ago
It might be 40% or 55%, I don't keep records [1], but I'm 100% sure it's not exactly 50%. Numbers are rarely shared, so I have a lot of questions, what is your ration when recruiting? Lower? Below 20%? If you do not use FizzBuzz what to you do use then? Fixing bugs? Homework project (do you find it on StackOverflow afterwards?)? What is the ratio there? Or don't you check for coding skills? (One of the old blog posts talks about 90%). The ratio depends on where your job ads are I assume. If your ad is on some remote only website, you get more applicants but also a higher ratio. If you only work with recruiting agencies, from my experience the ratio is lower, but you pay EUR 20k commission. [1] Sadly I can't get our HR software to track these ratios over channels.
wting 5y ago
At a previous company we asked candidates to calculate the median value given an array of numbers. We also gave them test cases that covered 100% of what we wanted. 23% of applicants could not produce a working solution.
- KingOfCoders 5y ago
  I will try that one in my interviews.
unscaled 5y ago
Joel Spolsky has explained how it's possible before: https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2005/01/27/news-58/ https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2005/01/27/news-58/
- cupofcoffee 5y ago
  It really isn't possible. Every single CS person I know of is doing LC.

sangnoir 5y ago

I think everyone who's complaining about how the developer shortage is fake should spend some time sitting on the other side of the interview table. Author's faith in people's innate goodness won't last beyond the 3rd interview/screen. I've been on both sides of bad interviews: sometimes it's a mismatch, or the interviewee is having a bad day, but sometimes, the interviewee is just bad. Filtering out bad candidates are the best outcome, the absolute worst time-sink for everyone involved is getting a bad hire. In a past life, I joined an organization, and my cohort included a bonafide conman with no prior experience, or requisite skill. The man could talk himself into (or out of) anything. It took a surprisingly long time for the team to realize he was getting other team members to do his work for him in the guise of "needing help" (several weeks).

Cheecheepoopoo 5y ago
> The man could talk himself into (or out of) anything Why is he in the tech industry?
- sangnoir 5y ago
  I doubt he's still in industry, but my guess was it provided good, "easy" money while he was laying low for previous misdeeds. When I said "bonafide conman" - I meant he was using a fake identity and was quite literally on the run. The police got in touch with the org not too long afterwards asking after him - he was re-using an alias the police knew, and his employment/background-check likely popped him right back onto their radar. The police had wanted to set up a sting operation, but found no takers on staff - his alleged past crimes were linked to organized crime, so I can't say if the fears were overblown.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

Banana699 5y ago

>50% can't do FizzBuzz How can someone possibly call themselves a programmer (let alone a developer applying for a job) when they can't even pseudo something like fizzbuzz ? How can they use any API, tool or even copy code from SO without knowing how to write a foreach and a conditional inside?

KingOfCoders 5y ago
I wonder too, and I do not know. From some developers I've worked with in the past, they ask their colleagues a lot, try cut & paste until it works and ask detailed questions on StackOverflow or similar sites. The bigger the team the longer they can stay with the company until they are made to leave. In some very large companies I've worked with, with large teams, they stay forever even when colleagues are unhappy with their performance. In those companies it is often more important to have all positions closed than have (good) developers in every position. When looking at CVs - not scientifically - some stay only some months with a company or stayed for a long time with a large enterprise.
mLuby 5y ago
> How can someone possibly call themselves a programmer… when they can't even pseudo something like fizzbuzz? Agreed. On the other hand, I can count the number of times I've used modulo professionally on one hand, so I wouldn't be too shocked to encounter a competent programmer who had't heard of it.
- KingOfCoders 5y ago
  If I do FizzBuzz people can invent an API function rest_of_division() if needed, or can_be_divided_by(). FizzBuzz (or something more complex) for me is a coding check, not an API/syntax knowledge test.
- LorenPechtel 5y ago
  You can do fizzbuzz without it, it's just not as efficient.
- rcxdude 5y ago

LorenPechtel 5y ago

Yes, this is what he's really missing. I think he has a lot of good points (but not all--sorry, but while you can get the basics of a new language quickly the main time cost is learning the library) but he utterly overlooks all the trash. The companies doing the hiring see a lot of trash applying and take all sorts of steps to filter it out. The trash keeps applying everywhere, the companies try even harder to filter it. The companies see the filters as saving them time on interviewing trash, they don't see the good ones being filtered out. I'd like to see some sort of meaningful certification of developer skills, but it would be awfully hard to do without being subject to being gamed.