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> You keep talking about good math pedagogical practice without talking about its relation to white supremacy. On the contrary, the first thing I said is that

> You keep talking about good math pedagogical practice without talking about its relation to white supremacy. On the contrary, the first thing I said is that one of the first of the five documents says that "teachers should be aware of their implicit biases". Do I need to specifically use the words "white supremacy". Yeah, "white supremacy" is one of the most common vehicle for racism in the US (this seemed pretty obvious). Here, in a single sentence, just repeating what my previous comments say: "these documents list non-controversial pedagogical best practices that just happen to be more important when dealing with people who have suffered from institutionalized racism (frequently described with the words white supremacy)". > Are you interested in talking about the ways in which the outlined pedagogical practices relate to white supremacy? My whole point is that these practices are great independently of whether you live in a country where any form of racism or segragation exists or if you live in a small homogenic country that does not have these problem. It just happens that they are even more important in the former case. > when asked about how asians and indian americans fit into the discussion, your reply is that the bigotry they've faced is far more tolerable? I have made no such claim!? Different groups have faced different challenges and that leads to different societal problems. Seems silly to start a misery Olympics and discuss which of the terrible things are more terrible.

threatofrain 5y ago
> I have made no such claim!? Different groups have faced different challenges and that leads to different societal problems. Seems silly to start a misery Olympics and discuss which of the terrible things are more terrible. I'm not sure what you think it means when you reply by asking us to compare black tropes to asian tropes. Some of the asian tropes going around now are related to spreading the "chinese" virus, and being spies that steal IP, or students who cheat. > Cantor's obsessions at the end of his life and Goedel's incompleteness theorem would be a great starting point for an essay on the limits of objectivity in math. Separately, it sounds like from your teaching experience you've mostly been dealing with kids who would really enjoy the foundations of math and physics, and may enjoy discussing how things are true only within a model, and how even that model has trouble making judgments over some sentences. But for everyone else that's a lot of explanation without firepower. I teach in a model classroom for a math franchise that deals with the age range in question for this document — not college aged kids in MIT. When you're teaching youths, not delivering a story and feeling of firepower is deadly. It is not like college where the failure to learn is their fault. I also evaluate competitor products domestic and abroad, and I would critique them for the same issues mentioned in this training document, that their product is far more rote, authoritarian, linear, etc. But I would never imagine that, say, a largely imported korean or singaporean product would have notable relationships with white supremacy just because they emphasized rote learning, linear sequencing, an either-or concept of truth, etc. I think it's completely fine to have a discussion about how some attitudes and styles in math pedagogy are destructive to student motivation, but these arguments of white supremacy ought be better substantiated. The leading arguments so far have been extremely unimpressive, and IMO there could be a more general backlash due to the loss of credibility.
- krastanov 5y ago
  Your last (edit: second-to-last) paragraph is the first time in this whole conversation that I get what you guys are talking about. I think you are misreading the document. It says that "there is only one right way" is a trope frequently used by white supremacist philosophies, not that the presence of that trope implies the presence of white supremacist philosophies. I feel like getting hung up on this is just silly and overly "snowflaky", when the document as a whole has so many great suggestions on how to be a better teacher. One other important comment: > But for everyone else that's a lot of explanation without firepower. This is a deeply wrong idea that leads to poorly skilled engineers and scientists and I would die on this hill. You are giving your students too little credit if you think they would not be interested when this is taught properly (e.g. by following the instructions in this document). This is exactly the firepower you need to have exceptional skills.
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threatofrain 5y ago

> I have made no such claim!? Different groups have faced different challenges and that leads to different societal problems. Seems silly to start a misery Olympics and discuss which of the terrible things are more terrible. I'm not sure what you think it means when you reply by asking us to compare black tropes to asian tropes. Some of the asian tropes going around now are related to spreading the "chinese" virus, and being spies that steal IP, or students who cheat. > Cantor's obsessions at the end of his life and Goedel's incompleteness theorem would be a great starting point for an essay on the limits of objectivity in math. Separately, it sounds like from your teaching experience you've mostly been dealing with kids who would really enjoy the foundations of math and physics, and may enjoy discussing how things are true only within a model, and how even that model has trouble making judgments over some sentences. But for everyone else that's a lot of explanation without firepower. I teach in a model classroom for a math franchise that deals with the age range in question for this document — not college aged kids in MIT. When you're teaching youths, not delivering a story and feeling of firepower is deadly. It is not like college where the failure to learn is their fault. I also evaluate competitor products domestic and abroad, and I would critique them for the same issues mentioned in this training document, that their product is far more rote, authoritarian, linear, etc. But I would never imagine that, say, a largely imported korean or singaporean product would have notable relationships with white supremacy just because they emphasized rote learning, linear sequencing, an either-or concept of truth, etc. I think it's completely fine to have a discussion about how some attitudes and styles in math pedagogy are destructive to student motivation, but these arguments of white supremacy ought be better substantiated. The leading arguments so far have been extremely unimpressive, and IMO there could be a more general backlash due to the loss of credibility.

krastanov 5y ago
Your last (edit: second-to-last) paragraph is the first time in this whole conversation that I get what you guys are talking about. I think you are misreading the document. It says that "there is only one right way" is a trope frequently used by white supremacist philosophies, not that the presence of that trope implies the presence of white supremacist philosophies. I feel like getting hung up on this is just silly and overly "snowflaky", when the document as a whole has so many great suggestions on how to be a better teacher. One other important comment: > But for everyone else that's a lot of explanation without firepower. This is a deeply wrong idea that leads to poorly skilled engineers and scientists and I would die on this hill. You are giving your students too little credit if you think they would not be interested when this is taught properly (e.g. by following the instructions in this document). This is exactly the firepower you need to have exceptional skills.
- deleted 5y ago
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