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I am not quite certain what you mean with this link. It basically says that it is important that teachers are not racist and be aware of their implicit biases.

I am not quite certain what you mean with this link. It basically says that it is important that teachers are not racist and be aware of their implicit biases. That seems pretty reasonable and non-controversial. Just look at chapter 2! This is how you are supposed to teach math properly (as opposed to a rote exercise), independently of whether you have social justice beliefs. And if the problem is about some vague "different way of thinking", this is also addressed by good teachers: one student has an aptitude to solve something with an algebraic proof, another one has an aptitude with geometric proofs, etc. A good teacher will use this as a moment to explore the other ways of thinking, which are deeply important for good mathematicians. EDIT: You added a definition of white supremacy and a bunch of correlating terms. Sure, that definition seems fine, but I do not see how it relates to the conversation. EDIT 2: If you are hung up on words like "objectivity" being listed among the "naughty words", consider what the author actually means by that word. Is an all-white jury really an objective jury of your peers when you are black. Or if you want to torture the metaphor and talk about math: Cantor's obsessions at the end of his life and Goedel's incompleteness theorem would be a great starting point for an essay on the limits of objectivity in math.

threatofrain 5y ago
The definition and the list of characteristics is from the training document. The document is about addressing the ways in which current practices are related to white supremacy. Each point isn't just about the right ways to teach math, it's also about white supremacy. You can discuss how to teach math well, such as by avoiding rote learning (maybe?), but then you're not talking on the same substance of the training document. The document is about white supremacy in math instruction. And how do asians and indian americans fit into this discussion?
- krastanov 5y ago
  You are editing your comments a lot, so it is pretty difficult to answer. My answer was written before you mentioned anything about white supremacy. But I still do not see the point you are trying to make. This is a set of 5 documents, and much of their content is great advise independently of whether you are worried about the effects of racism in education. The link you used in your last edit is to the first of the five documents (initially it was to all of them). The first document just says that teachers should be aware of the effect that the history of racism has on their students and how to actively counter these effects. I really do not see how any of this is controversial. You might be hung up on the choice of a couple of words. I already addressed "objectivity" in my edit of the previous answer. On the topic of "perfectionism" -- requiring perfectionism from your students is idiotic in a pedagogical setting. Education is about building up and when the student makes a mistake is the best moment to teach them something new. If you are reasonably expecting perfection, then your students are in a class that is too easy, which is a waste of their time. All of this is standard ideas in pedagogy as a whole, it just happens to be doubly important when discussing the harm done by the history of racism. EDIT: You mentioned Asian Americans. Well, just compare the racist tropes they have faced in the last century (model minority) vs the racist tropes black people have faced when the country was founded (dangerous subhumans).
  - jollybean 5y ago
    "The first document just says that teachers should be aware of the effect that the history of racism has on their students and how to actively counter these effects. I really do not see how any of this is controversial." I don't see how anyone could read that document and come to that conclusion. "requiring perfectionism from your students is idiotic in a pedagogical setting." And what does that have to do with 'White Supremacy'? Where is your evidence that this is the nature of math teaching? Where is your evidence that something else would be materially more beneficial for students of colour? I'd would be interesting to see, but I think on the face of it it's kind of ridiculous. They need to provide some objective evidence of 'how math is racist' - and - how other, specific training methods are 'less racist' - or this document should be held up as ideological fantasy.
    - krastanov 5y ago
      I partially answered in sibling comments, you asked about my qualification to make these claims and about proof of some the statements I made about methodologies: I have taught some of the introductory and some of the most advanced classes in Physics/Engineering/ML as an assistant at Yale and at MIT. The practices I discussed are standard operating procedure at these schools and have been for a while (without worries about racism even being much of a considerations, they are just good practices). These standard procedures are based on a few decades of pedagogical research. I have also prepared students for the International Physics Olympiad for multiple years. I am very involved in the education of young physicists with many great achievements. This is what I am basing my empirical observations on (including large amounts of anonymous feedback from students and results from standardized tests and competitions).
  - threatofrain 5y ago
    You keep talking about good math pedagogical practice without talking about its relation to white supremacy. When you do that, you're neglecting the primary substance of the training document. Are you interested in talking about the ways in which the outlined pedagogical practices relate to white supremacy? Also, when asked about how asians and indian americans fit into the discussion, your reply is that the bigotry they've faced is far more tolerable? That's the leading thought of how they fit into the discussion?
jollybean 5y ago
"It basically says that it is important that teachers are not racist and be aware of their implicit biases. That seems pretty reasonable and non-controversial." That is definitely not what they are saying in this document. They are saying that math and the way that is taught effectively around the world is a form of 'White Supremacy'. If you don't think that isn't controversial, and probably racist, then what is? You're missing a little bit the underlying philosophy here, when they say 'stop racist teaching' they don't really mean racism in the common sense. They are implying that math, in the manner that we view it is in and of itself systematically racist. Detractors are not randomly throwing around the term 'White Supremacy' etc. - here is the very first paragraph of the note: "to dismantling white supremacy in math classrooms by making visi- ble the toxic characteristics of white supremacy culture" They are directly implying that a 'focus on the correct answer' etc. is 'White Supremacy Culture' - which is not only ridiculous, but arguably very racist in and of itself. Consider that there is absolutely no evidence that math instruction is racist. None whatsoever - in fact - almost none of their wild assertions are founded in any objective analysis. They are ideological: it's a fundamental redefinition of the terms 'racism' etc. towards their view that minorities are systematically oppressed de-facto by the expression of the majority culture. "White supremacy culture shows up in math classrooms when... Grading practices center what students don't understand rather than what they do understand." "White supremacy culture shows up in math classrooms when... Students are required to “show their work” in standardized, prescribed ways." These are interesting thoughts on teaching but 1) there's no evidence presented that teachers are currently engaged in these practices 2) there's no basis for correlating these teaching methods with 'White Supremacy' and most importantly 3) no evidence that the proscribed methods are better in an way. That people are trying create better learning conditions for everyone is positive - but don't conflate solutions, especially those based on arbitrary ideological objectives - are necessary valuable, in many cases, they can be destructive.
- CallMeJim 5y ago
  John McWhorter has an interesting take on it (excuse the inflammatory title): https://johnmcwhorter.substack.com/p/no-more-tests-we-should-measure-black https://johnmcwhorter.substack.com/p/no-more-tests-we-should...
- 5y ago
redis_mlc 5y ago
FYI: krastanov is sealioning. There is nothing good about CRT, it's a plot to tear down society and rebuild it under the control of US Marxists. The significance of the discussion around the phrase "white supremacy" is that is has been re-defined from referring to the KKK to now mean "all white people." @krastanov: can you state what your Marxist affiliation is so that HN readers can understand your obvious bias?

threatofrain 5y ago

The definition and the list of characteristics is from the training document. The document is about addressing the ways in which current practices are related to white supremacy. Each point isn't just about the right ways to teach math, it's also about white supremacy. You can discuss how to teach math well, such as by avoiding rote learning (maybe?), but then you're not talking on the same substance of the training document. The document is about white supremacy in math instruction. And how do asians and indian americans fit into this discussion?

krastanov 5y ago
You are editing your comments a lot, so it is pretty difficult to answer. My answer was written before you mentioned anything about white supremacy. But I still do not see the point you are trying to make. This is a set of 5 documents, and much of their content is great advise independently of whether you are worried about the effects of racism in education. The link you used in your last edit is to the first of the five documents (initially it was to all of them). The first document just says that teachers should be aware of the effect that the history of racism has on their students and how to actively counter these effects. I really do not see how any of this is controversial. You might be hung up on the choice of a couple of words. I already addressed "objectivity" in my edit of the previous answer. On the topic of "perfectionism" -- requiring perfectionism from your students is idiotic in a pedagogical setting. Education is about building up and when the student makes a mistake is the best moment to teach them something new. If you are reasonably expecting perfection, then your students are in a class that is too easy, which is a waste of their time. All of this is standard ideas in pedagogy as a whole, it just happens to be doubly important when discussing the harm done by the history of racism. EDIT: You mentioned Asian Americans. Well, just compare the racist tropes they have faced in the last century (model minority) vs the racist tropes black people have faced when the country was founded (dangerous subhumans).
- jollybean 5y ago
  "The first document just says that teachers should be aware of the effect that the history of racism has on their students and how to actively counter these effects. I really do not see how any of this is controversial." I don't see how anyone could read that document and come to that conclusion. "requiring perfectionism from your students is idiotic in a pedagogical setting." And what does that have to do with 'White Supremacy'? Where is your evidence that this is the nature of math teaching? Where is your evidence that something else would be materially more beneficial for students of colour? I'd would be interesting to see, but I think on the face of it it's kind of ridiculous. They need to provide some objective evidence of 'how math is racist' - and - how other, specific training methods are 'less racist' - or this document should be held up as ideological fantasy.
  - krastanov 5y ago
    I partially answered in sibling comments, you asked about my qualification to make these claims and about proof of some the statements I made about methodologies: I have taught some of the introductory and some of the most advanced classes in Physics/Engineering/ML as an assistant at Yale and at MIT. The practices I discussed are standard operating procedure at these schools and have been for a while (without worries about racism even being much of a considerations, they are just good practices). These standard procedures are based on a few decades of pedagogical research. I have also prepared students for the International Physics Olympiad for multiple years. I am very involved in the education of young physicists with many great achievements. This is what I am basing my empirical observations on (including large amounts of anonymous feedback from students and results from standardized tests and competitions).
- threatofrain 5y ago
  You keep talking about good math pedagogical practice without talking about its relation to white supremacy. When you do that, you're neglecting the primary substance of the training document. Are you interested in talking about the ways in which the outlined pedagogical practices relate to white supremacy? Also, when asked about how asians and indian americans fit into the discussion, your reply is that the bigotry they've faced is far more tolerable? That's the leading thought of how they fit into the discussion?

jollybean 5y ago

"It basically says that it is important that teachers are not racist and be aware of their implicit biases. That seems pretty reasonable and non-controversial." That is definitely not what they are saying in this document. They are saying that math and the way that is taught effectively around the world is a form of 'White Supremacy'. If you don't think that isn't controversial, and probably racist, then what is? You're missing a little bit the underlying philosophy here, when they say 'stop racist teaching' they don't really mean racism in the common sense. They are implying that math, in the manner that we view it is in and of itself systematically racist. Detractors are not randomly throwing around the term 'White Supremacy' etc. - here is the very first paragraph of the note: "to dismantling white supremacy in math classrooms by making visi- ble the toxic characteristics of white supremacy culture" They are directly implying that a 'focus on the correct answer' etc. is 'White Supremacy Culture' - which is not only ridiculous, but arguably very racist in and of itself. Consider that there is absolutely no evidence that math instruction is racist. None whatsoever - in fact - almost none of their wild assertions are founded in any objective analysis. They are ideological: it's a fundamental redefinition of the terms 'racism' etc. towards their view that minorities are systematically oppressed de-facto by the expression of the majority culture. "White supremacy culture shows up in math classrooms when... Grading practices center what students don't understand rather than what they do understand." "White supremacy culture shows up in math classrooms when... Students are required to “show their work” in standardized, prescribed ways." These are interesting thoughts on teaching but 1) there's no evidence presented that teachers are currently engaged in these practices 2) there's no basis for correlating these teaching methods with 'White Supremacy' and most importantly 3) no evidence that the proscribed methods are better in an way. That people are trying create better learning conditions for everyone is positive - but don't conflate solutions, especially those based on arbitrary ideological objectives - are necessary valuable, in many cases, they can be destructive.

CallMeJim 5y ago
John McWhorter has an interesting take on it (excuse the inflammatory title): https://johnmcwhorter.substack.com/p/no-more-tests-we-should-measure-black https://johnmcwhorter.substack.com/p/no-more-tests-we-should...
5y ago

redis_mlc 5y ago

FYI: krastanov is sealioning. There is nothing good about CRT, it's a plot to tear down society and rebuild it under the control of US Marxists. The significance of the discussion around the phrase "white supremacy" is that is has been re-defined from referring to the KKK to now mean "all white people." @krastanov: can you state what your Marxist affiliation is so that HN readers can understand your obvious bias?