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Your comment is great and pretty detailed, but there is one thing that really threw me off (otherwise, I can not agree enough with everything else you wrote). Y

Your comment is great and pretty detailed, but there is one thing that really threw me off (otherwise, I can not agree enough with everything else you wrote). You mentioned that the CRT perspective is that math (objective truth) is racist -- while I can think of a couple of CRT claims that with some mental gymnastics can be forced to sound that way, I do not really see that claim being made. Could you point to scholars (CRT mainstream, not random crazies on the internet or opinion writers in magazines) that actually hold that opinion?

threatofrain 5y ago
https://equitablemath.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2020/11/1_STRIDE1.pdf https://equitablemath.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2020/11... First the operating definition of white supremacy, so we're on the same page: > White supremacy culture is the idea (ideology) that White people and the ideas, thoughts, beliefs, and actions of white people are superior to People of Color and their ideas, thoughts, beliefs, and actions. And from Jones and Okun (2001) we have a cluster of traits which are identified with white supremacy: - perfectionism - sense of urgency - defensiveness - quantity over quality - worship of the written word - paternalism - either or thinking - power hoarding - fear of open conflict - individualism - only one right way - progress is bigger, more - objectivity - right to comfort
- krastanov 5y ago
  I am not quite certain what you mean with this link. It basically says that it is important that teachers are not racist and be aware of their implicit biases. That seems pretty reasonable and non-controversial. Just look at chapter 2! This is how you are supposed to teach math properly (as opposed to a rote exercise), independently of whether you have social justice beliefs. And if the problem is about some vague "different way of thinking", this is also addressed by good teachers: one student has an aptitude to solve something with an algebraic proof, another one has an aptitude with geometric proofs, etc. A good teacher will use this as a moment to explore the other ways of thinking, which are deeply important for good mathematicians. EDIT: You added a definition of white supremacy and a bunch of correlating terms. Sure, that definition seems fine, but I do not see how it relates to the conversation. EDIT 2: If you are hung up on words like "objectivity" being listed among the "naughty words", consider what the author actually means by that word. Is an all-white jury really an objective jury of your peers when you are black. Or if you want to torture the metaphor and talk about math: Cantor's obsessions at the end of his life and Goedel's incompleteness theorem would be a great starting point for an essay on the limits of objectivity in math.
  - threatofrain 5y ago
    The definition and the list of characteristics is from the training document. The document is about addressing the ways in which current practices are related to white supremacy. Each point isn't just about the right ways to teach math, it's also about white supremacy. You can discuss how to teach math well, such as by avoiding rote learning (maybe?), but then you're not talking on the same substance of the training document. The document is about white supremacy in math instruction. And how do asians and indian americans fit into this discussion?
    - krastanov 5y ago
      You are editing your comments a lot, so it is pretty difficult to answer. My answer was written before you mentioned anything about white supremacy. But I still do not see the point you are trying to make. This is a set of 5 documents, and much of their content is great advise independently of whether you are worried about the effects of racism in education. The link you used in your last edit is to the first of the five documents (initially it was to all of them). The first document just says that teachers should be aware of the effect that the history of racism has on their students and how to actively counter these effects. I really do not see how any of this is controversial. You might be hung up on the choice of a couple of words. I already addressed "objectivity" in my edit of the previous answer. On the topic of "perfectionism" -- requiring perfectionism from your students is idiotic in a pedagogical setting. Education is about building up and when the student makes a mistake is the best moment to teach them something new. If you are reasonably expecting perfection, then your students are in a class that is too easy, which is a waste of their time. All of this is standard ideas in pedagogy as a whole, it just happens to be doubly important when discussing the harm done by the history of racism. EDIT: You mentioned Asian Americans. Well, just compare the racist tropes they have faced in the last century (model minority) vs the racist tropes black people have faced when the country was founded (dangerous subhumans).
      - jollybean 5y ago
        "The first document just says that teachers should be aware of the effect that the history of racism has on their students and how to actively counter these effects. I really do not see how any of this is controversial." I don't see how anyone could read that document and come to that conclusion. "requiring perfectionism from your students is idiotic in a pedagogical setting." And what does that have to do with 'White Supremacy'? Where is your evidence that this is the nature of math teaching? Where is your evidence that something else would be materially more beneficial for students of colour? I'd would be interesting to see, but I think on the face of it it's kind of ridiculous. They need to provide some objective evidence of 'how math is racist' - and - how other, specific training methods are 'less racist' - or this document should be held up as ideological fantasy.
- smitty1e 5y ago
  My standard reply to this line of argument is that both the English language and Roman alphabet and anyone using these hideous tools of oppression are drenched in Wide Soup Rim Assist thinking.

threatofrain 5y ago

https://equitablemath.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2020/11/1_STRIDE1.pdf https://equitablemath.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2020/11... First the operating definition of white supremacy, so we're on the same page: > White supremacy culture is the idea (ideology) that White people and the ideas, thoughts, beliefs, and actions of white people are superior to People of Color and their ideas, thoughts, beliefs, and actions. And from Jones and Okun (2001) we have a cluster of traits which are identified with white supremacy: - perfectionism - sense of urgency - defensiveness - quantity over quality - worship of the written word - paternalism - either or thinking - power hoarding - fear of open conflict - individualism - only one right way - progress is bigger, more - objectivity - right to comfort

krastanov 5y ago
I am not quite certain what you mean with this link. It basically says that it is important that teachers are not racist and be aware of their implicit biases. That seems pretty reasonable and non-controversial. Just look at chapter 2! This is how you are supposed to teach math properly (as opposed to a rote exercise), independently of whether you have social justice beliefs. And if the problem is about some vague "different way of thinking", this is also addressed by good teachers: one student has an aptitude to solve something with an algebraic proof, another one has an aptitude with geometric proofs, etc. A good teacher will use this as a moment to explore the other ways of thinking, which are deeply important for good mathematicians. EDIT: You added a definition of white supremacy and a bunch of correlating terms. Sure, that definition seems fine, but I do not see how it relates to the conversation. EDIT 2: If you are hung up on words like "objectivity" being listed among the "naughty words", consider what the author actually means by that word. Is an all-white jury really an objective jury of your peers when you are black. Or if you want to torture the metaphor and talk about math: Cantor's obsessions at the end of his life and Goedel's incompleteness theorem would be a great starting point for an essay on the limits of objectivity in math.
- threatofrain 5y ago
  The definition and the list of characteristics is from the training document. The document is about addressing the ways in which current practices are related to white supremacy. Each point isn't just about the right ways to teach math, it's also about white supremacy. You can discuss how to teach math well, such as by avoiding rote learning (maybe?), but then you're not talking on the same substance of the training document. The document is about white supremacy in math instruction. And how do asians and indian americans fit into this discussion?
  - krastanov 5y ago
    You are editing your comments a lot, so it is pretty difficult to answer. My answer was written before you mentioned anything about white supremacy. But I still do not see the point you are trying to make. This is a set of 5 documents, and much of their content is great advise independently of whether you are worried about the effects of racism in education. The link you used in your last edit is to the first of the five documents (initially it was to all of them). The first document just says that teachers should be aware of the effect that the history of racism has on their students and how to actively counter these effects. I really do not see how any of this is controversial. You might be hung up on the choice of a couple of words. I already addressed "objectivity" in my edit of the previous answer. On the topic of "perfectionism" -- requiring perfectionism from your students is idiotic in a pedagogical setting. Education is about building up and when the student makes a mistake is the best moment to teach them something new. If you are reasonably expecting perfection, then your students are in a class that is too easy, which is a waste of their time. All of this is standard ideas in pedagogy as a whole, it just happens to be doubly important when discussing the harm done by the history of racism. EDIT: You mentioned Asian Americans. Well, just compare the racist tropes they have faced in the last century (model minority) vs the racist tropes black people have faced when the country was founded (dangerous subhumans).
    - jollybean 5y ago
      "The first document just says that teachers should be aware of the effect that the history of racism has on their students and how to actively counter these effects. I really do not see how any of this is controversial." I don't see how anyone could read that document and come to that conclusion. "requiring perfectionism from your students is idiotic in a pedagogical setting." And what does that have to do with 'White Supremacy'? Where is your evidence that this is the nature of math teaching? Where is your evidence that something else would be materially more beneficial for students of colour? I'd would be interesting to see, but I think on the face of it it's kind of ridiculous. They need to provide some objective evidence of 'how math is racist' - and - how other, specific training methods are 'less racist' - or this document should be held up as ideological fantasy.
smitty1e 5y ago
My standard reply to this line of argument is that both the English language and Roman alphabet and anyone using these hideous tools of oppression are drenched in Wide Soup Rim Assist thinking.