9 ms·

America Is Flunking Math

28 points by throwkeep 5y ago

jollybean 5y ago
To add some context, according to PISA, most Americans are doing just fine, and the best Americans are amazing, but there are problems within certain groups [1]. There is no 'general slowdown' - it's more of an isolated issue, but those groups are growing a little bit in number so averages look off. Also, it seems as though the Chinese test-takers for PISA are not a fair representation, there's cherry picking there like they are all from Beijing or Shanghai and from good schools etc.. Finally - there is a really hard discussion to be had as the CRT perspective is that math itself (focus on correct answers, objectivity etc.) is racist and built on an inherently white/western/colonialist paradigm, and encourages other forms of expression as 'equally correct'. There's some academic points to be had there, surely, and maybe dropping 'entrance exams' as primary criteria is also a good thing overall - but - the rejection of science and math and essentially enlightenment principles as basically cover, or an excuse for non-achievement isn't going to work. Also in general there's too much focus on the education system itself, instead of the students, their home life and culture - if nobody shows up, nobody likes math, people are bullied for doing well, all role models are antagonists instead of positive, parents don't care, or don't know enough to encourage some conscientious outcomes - then nothing on the educational side will work. There seems to be some success in pulling otherwise decent kids out of 'really bad schools' but unfortunately that just leaves the bad places a little worse. 'Bad Math Scores' might be a little bit more a function of overall social malaise than just 'focus on math' itself, if we can get stable homes with parents who encourage kids, where gangs are not prevalent etc. then there's hope. Edit ---- While we are add it have a look [2] - from the OECD which breaks down PISA scoring by immigrants in various countries. This is maybe helpful because it gives a basis for other countries to get how 'non majority' people do elsewhere. The most interesting artifact of this is that - after accounting for economic standing - immigrants in Anglosphere countries (and some other small expat nations like Qatar) do exceedingly well - better than the local kids! While migrants struggle and do 'worse than' average kids in most nations - after you account for their depressed economic status, immigrants to better than average in Canada/US/UK. Oddly - eveb in places with exceptionally high educational standards like Finland - immigrants to 'very bad' even when accounting for income. Literally Finland is a 'Top 3' place for education, and yet, they are essentially at the very bottom when it comes to kids outside normative culture. This I think is insightful and I thing suggests that the US for example doesn't have anything resembling 'toxic teaching system' - at least migrants, who are generally outsiders to the 'majority culture' do relatively well. [1] https://gpseducation.oecd.org/CountryProfile?plotter=h5&primaryCountry=USA&treshold=5&topic=PI https://gpseducation.oecd.org/CountryProfile?plotter=h5&prim... [2] https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/263bde74-en/index.html?itemId=/content/component/263bde74-en https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/263bde74-en/index.html?i...
- krastanov 5y ago
  Your comment is great and pretty detailed, but there is one thing that really threw me off (otherwise, I can not agree enough with everything else you wrote). You mentioned that the CRT perspective is that math (objective truth) is racist -- while I can think of a couple of CRT claims that with some mental gymnastics can be forced to sound that way, I do not really see that claim being made. Could you point to scholars (CRT mainstream, not random crazies on the internet or opinion writers in magazines) that actually hold that opinion?
  - threatofrain 5y ago
    https://equitablemath.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2020/11/1_STRIDE1.pdf https://equitablemath.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2020/11... First the operating definition of white supremacy, so we're on the same page: > White supremacy culture is the idea (ideology) that White people and the ideas, thoughts, beliefs, and actions of white people are superior to People of Color and their ideas, thoughts, beliefs, and actions. And from Jones and Okun (2001) we have a cluster of traits which are identified with white supremacy: - perfectionism - sense of urgency - defensiveness - quantity over quality - worship of the written word - paternalism - either or thinking - power hoarding - fear of open conflict - individualism - only one right way - progress is bigger, more - objectivity - right to comfort
    - krastanov 5y ago
      I am not quite certain what you mean with this link. It basically says that it is important that teachers are not racist and be aware of their implicit biases. That seems pretty reasonable and non-controversial. Just look at chapter 2! This is how you are supposed to teach math properly (as opposed to a rote exercise), independently of whether you have social justice beliefs. And if the problem is about some vague "different way of thinking", this is also addressed by good teachers: one student has an aptitude to solve something with an algebraic proof, another one has an aptitude with geometric proofs, etc. A good teacher will use this as a moment to explore the other ways of thinking, which are deeply important for good mathematicians. EDIT: You added a definition of white supremacy and a bunch of correlating terms. Sure, that definition seems fine, but I do not see how it relates to the conversation. EDIT 2: If you are hung up on words like "objectivity" being listed among the "naughty words", consider what the author actually means by that word. Is an all-white jury really an objective jury of your peers when you are black. Or if you want to torture the metaphor and talk about math: Cantor's obsessions at the end of his life and Goedel's incompleteness theorem would be a great starting point for an essay on the limits of objectivity in math.
black_13 5y ago
Why bother to seek out a STEM career when your boss or his company is actively seeking to remove you.
- commandlinefan 5y ago
  Or if you wonder whether you can get hired at all, regardless of qualifications.
redis_mlc 5y ago
It's a well-written, good summary of the effects of CRT on mathematics. It's important to understand that math professors, in the best of times, are looking for great math students, in a similar way to catching sand with your fingers. When CRT takes time and confidence away from students, even less sand remains. (The reason US Marxists are attacking STEM, religion and the nuclear family is that they offer absolute truth and contentment, while Marxists want a new society with relative concepts of oppressor and oppressed, which Marxists control.)
innagadadavida 5y ago
Indian parent in Bay Area here and my 3rd grader loves math and is already into logarithms and enjoys learning these concepts. After going through these articles, I’m concerned to say the least. Are there any resources or groups that I can part of to counter this - what I think will be dumbing-down of the next generation? What are some practical steps to take other than just fleeing this environment?
- actually_a_dog 5y ago
  Private school?
  - doggodaddo78 5y ago
    My parents put me in a private school for K-3 for this reason. But then threw me in public school for 4th grade because my dad wanted to buy more audiophile equipment. I was constantly ahead of the public school material for 5 grades. In high-school, I took the SAT-I without studying and aced the math section. (Plot twist: I was white and not rich amongst mostly rich white and Asian students.) On a tangent, I had to decline a roommate because he expressed "the scientific method is racist." That was it. I couldn't believe what I was hearing.
  - threatofrain 5y ago
    Private mentoring is a better use of money than private school, IMO, as Bay Area public schools are pretty decent and will send a good amount of kids to elite colleges.
  - innagadadavida 5y ago
    The way I see it, this system will soon spread from public school policy to community colleges, state universities, to all the way to private colleges. It’s just a matter of time and it would be better to start now to find a way to get some representation for the taxes we pay.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
actually_a_dog 5y ago
Is anyone else seeing a lot of accusations and invective with no actual evidence or other support here? I'm willing to believe that their theses are true, but I don't see them supported here. They just point at a lot of stuff and say "Look! This is bad!"
- threatofrain 5y ago
  The article is full of citations, actually. Perhaps your hyperlinks are difficult to see. Or are you saying all the citations are worthless?
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
jacknews 5y ago
From the comments: "I don't care if we produce the next Einstein. China can "win." I care about turning our common ship in the direction of our founding promises." In other words it's better for everyone to be equally bad than for some (white) people to be better n others.

28 points by throwkeep 5y ago

To add some context, according to PISA, most Americans are doing just fine, and the best Americans are amazing, but there are problems within certain groups [1]. There is no 'general slowdown' - it's more of an isolated issue, but those groups are growing a little bit in number so averages look off. Also, it seems as though the Chinese test-takers for PISA are not a fair representation, there's cherry picking there like they are all from Beijing or Shanghai and from good schools etc.. Finally - there is a really hard discussion to be had as the CRT perspective is that math itself (focus on correct answers, objectivity etc.) is racist and built on an inherently white/western/colonialist paradigm, and encourages other forms of expression as 'equally correct'. There's some academic points to be had there, surely, and maybe dropping 'entrance exams' as primary criteria is also a good thing overall - but - the rejection of science and math and essentially enlightenment principles as basically cover, or an excuse for non-achievement isn't going to work. Also in general there's too much focus on the education system itself, instead of the students, their home life and culture - if nobody shows up, nobody likes math, people are bullied for doing well, all role models are antagonists instead of positive, parents don't care, or don't know enough to encourage some conscientious outcomes - then nothing on the educational side will work. There seems to be some success in pulling otherwise decent kids out of 'really bad schools' but unfortunately that just leaves the bad places a little worse. 'Bad Math Scores' might be a little bit more a function of overall social malaise than just 'focus on math' itself, if we can get stable homes with parents who encourage kids, where gangs are not prevalent etc. then there's hope. Edit ---- While we are add it have a look [2] - from the OECD which breaks down PISA scoring by immigrants in various countries. This is maybe helpful because it gives a basis for other countries to get how 'non majority' people do elsewhere. The most interesting artifact of this is that - after accounting for economic standing - immigrants in Anglosphere countries (and some other small expat nations like Qatar) do exceedingly well - better than the local kids! While migrants struggle and do 'worse than' average kids in most nations - after you account for their depressed economic status, immigrants to better than average in Canada/US/UK. Oddly - eveb in places with exceptionally high educational standards like Finland - immigrants to 'very bad' even when accounting for income. Literally Finland is a 'Top 3' place for education, and yet, they are essentially at the very bottom when it comes to kids outside normative culture. This I think is insightful and I thing suggests that the US for example doesn't have anything resembling 'toxic teaching system' - at least migrants, who are generally outsiders to the 'majority culture' do relatively well. [1] https://gpseducation.oecd.org/CountryProfile?plotter=h5&primaryCountry=USA&treshold=5&topic=PI https://gpseducation.oecd.org/CountryProfile?plotter=h5&prim... [2] https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/263bde74-en/index.html?itemId=/content/component/263bde74-en https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/263bde74-en/index.html?i...

krastanov 5y ago
Your comment is great and pretty detailed, but there is one thing that really threw me off (otherwise, I can not agree enough with everything else you wrote). You mentioned that the CRT perspective is that math (objective truth) is racist -- while I can think of a couple of CRT claims that with some mental gymnastics can be forced to sound that way, I do not really see that claim being made. Could you point to scholars (CRT mainstream, not random crazies on the internet or opinion writers in magazines) that actually hold that opinion?
- threatofrain 5y ago
  https://equitablemath.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2020/11/1_STRIDE1.pdf https://equitablemath.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2020/11... First the operating definition of white supremacy, so we're on the same page: > White supremacy culture is the idea (ideology) that White people and the ideas, thoughts, beliefs, and actions of white people are superior to People of Color and their ideas, thoughts, beliefs, and actions. And from Jones and Okun (2001) we have a cluster of traits which are identified with white supremacy: - perfectionism - sense of urgency - defensiveness - quantity over quality - worship of the written word - paternalism - either or thinking - power hoarding - fear of open conflict - individualism - only one right way - progress is bigger, more - objectivity - right to comfort
  - krastanov 5y ago
    I am not quite certain what you mean with this link. It basically says that it is important that teachers are not racist and be aware of their implicit biases. That seems pretty reasonable and non-controversial. Just look at chapter 2! This is how you are supposed to teach math properly (as opposed to a rote exercise), independently of whether you have social justice beliefs. And if the problem is about some vague "different way of thinking", this is also addressed by good teachers: one student has an aptitude to solve something with an algebraic proof, another one has an aptitude with geometric proofs, etc. A good teacher will use this as a moment to explore the other ways of thinking, which are deeply important for good mathematicians. EDIT: You added a definition of white supremacy and a bunch of correlating terms. Sure, that definition seems fine, but I do not see how it relates to the conversation. EDIT 2: If you are hung up on words like "objectivity" being listed among the "naughty words", consider what the author actually means by that word. Is an all-white jury really an objective jury of your peers when you are black. Or if you want to torture the metaphor and talk about math: Cantor's obsessions at the end of his life and Goedel's incompleteness theorem would be a great starting point for an essay on the limits of objectivity in math.

black_13 5y ago

Why bother to seek out a STEM career when your boss or his company is actively seeking to remove you.

commandlinefan 5y ago
Or if you wonder whether you can get hired at all, regardless of qualifications.

redis_mlc 5y ago

It's a well-written, good summary of the effects of CRT on mathematics. It's important to understand that math professors, in the best of times, are looking for great math students, in a similar way to catching sand with your fingers. When CRT takes time and confidence away from students, even less sand remains. (The reason US Marxists are attacking STEM, religion and the nuclear family is that they offer absolute truth and contentment, while Marxists want a new society with relative concepts of oppressor and oppressed, which Marxists control.)

innagadadavida 5y ago

Indian parent in Bay Area here and my 3rd grader loves math and is already into logarithms and enjoys learning these concepts. After going through these articles, I’m concerned to say the least. Are there any resources or groups that I can part of to counter this - what I think will be dumbing-down of the next generation? What are some practical steps to take other than just fleeing this environment?

actually_a_dog 5y ago
Private school?
- doggodaddo78 5y ago
  My parents put me in a private school for K-3 for this reason. But then threw me in public school for 4th grade because my dad wanted to buy more audiophile equipment. I was constantly ahead of the public school material for 5 grades. In high-school, I took the SAT-I without studying and aced the math section. (Plot twist: I was white and not rich amongst mostly rich white and Asian students.) On a tangent, I had to decline a roommate because he expressed "the scientific method is racist." That was it. I couldn't believe what I was hearing.
- threatofrain 5y ago
  Private mentoring is a better use of money than private school, IMO, as Bay Area public schools are pretty decent and will send a good amount of kids to elite colleges.
- innagadadavida 5y ago
  The way I see it, this system will soon spread from public school policy to community colleges, state universities, to all the way to private colleges. It’s just a matter of time and it would be better to start now to find a way to get some representation for the taxes we pay.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

actually_a_dog 5y ago

Is anyone else seeing a lot of accusations and invective with no actual evidence or other support here? I'm willing to believe that their theses are true, but I don't see them supported here. They just point at a lot of stuff and say "Look! This is bad!"

threatofrain 5y ago
The article is full of citations, actually. Perhaps your hyperlinks are difficult to see. Or are you saying all the citations are worthless?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

jacknews 5y ago

From the comments: "I don't care if we produce the next Einstein. China can "win." I care about turning our common ship in the direction of our founding promises." In other words it's better for everyone to be equally bad than for some (white) people to be better n others.