5 ms·

If the extra step means my money doesn't lose value as government print cash like there's no tomorrow, then that step is quite valuable to me

FalconSensei 5y ago
It only loses value when Elon shitpost on Twitter, right?
perl4ever 5y ago
BTC seems to be about 10 times more volatile than the dollar on a daily basis. Like, last friday, the dollar was down about 0.4% and BTC was up or down 4-5% intraday. This seems to me kind of like the argument that the government is "just" another gang of armed bandits. There is a huge amount of value in predictable taxation rather than random robbery. Partly because of the variance, and partly because government has more of a long term interest in the viability of the citizenry, even if it weren't especially democratic per se. And similarly, there's a huge value in a currency that gradually loses value over time rather than being up or down 5% in a day and 30% in a few weeks. The whole point of currency is that it's not a long term investment asset, but a tool for trade, isn't it? So why would long run inflation be relevant?
- a1369209993 5y ago
  > BTC seems to be about 10 times more volatile than the dollar on a daily basis. They're not talking about volatility; they're talking about the average trend over time.
  - perl4ever 5y ago
    I know. My point was this is the wrong focus, because of what currency is by nature. Short term volatility is a big disadvantage, while gradual loss in value doesn't matter for something that's not a long term investment. I owe way more money than I have in cash, as does almost everyone, and my loans being in nominal currency, inflation only helps.
    - a1369209993 5y ago
      > My point was this is the wrong focus, because of what currency is by nature. Ah, fair enough. That said: > I owe way more money than I have in cash, as does almost everyone, and my loans being in nominal currency, inflation only helps. This only works if you have a effective means of prohibiting (any) interest on those loans (ie anti-usury laws that actually have teeth). Otherwise the lender just bakes inflation into the interest.
      - perl4ever 5y ago
        I don't know if you are American, but it's common here to have 30 year fixed rate mortgages. I gather that's rare most other places. So I'm supposing a typical scenario where a person borrowed or refinanced recently to lock in very low inflation expectations. That said, there are variable rate loans, but last year some lenders were actually offering such loans at a noticeable discount to prime (albeit with a floor that is above prime for now).
        a1369209993 5y ago
        > 30 year fixed rate mortgages. That helps a little, but relies on lenders underestimating future inflation. If they can predict X% inflation, they can price that into the initial fixed rate. So it's useful for making damages due to usury less variable - which is helpful for the same reasons insurance is helpful - but it doesn't usefully reduce them.
        perl4ever 5y ago
        >If they can predict X% inflation, they can price that into the initial fixed rate Yes, hypothetically, but they aren't, yet.
    - DickingAround 5y ago
      Yea, but I don't have a problem with volatility. I have a problem with inflation. So, as a customer of this product, you can tell me I should want a lack of volatility. But what I really want is a lack of inflation. And indeed, your note implies that you too are fleeing cash. But I don't want to park all my money in bonds (also being printed like crazy) and houses (also being printed like crazy) or even companies (also being printed like crazy). I'd like to just park it in the IOU-form I earned it in without having it's value stolen or being forced to invest in something being printed like crazy with all sorts of complexity of risks (e.g. debt filled companies, real estate I have to rent or something). Just to have my money not lose value and for me to be able to spend it without someone being able to stop me. And it does that. I'll take the volatility.
- scrubs 5y ago
  Agree
Qwertious 5y ago
How is that different to investing in any other asset and then selling when you need to spend fiat currency, though?

FalconSensei 5y ago

It only loses value when Elon shitpost on Twitter, right?

perl4ever 5y ago

BTC seems to be about 10 times more volatile than the dollar on a daily basis. Like, last friday, the dollar was down about 0.4% and BTC was up or down 4-5% intraday. This seems to me kind of like the argument that the government is "just" another gang of armed bandits. There is a huge amount of value in predictable taxation rather than random robbery. Partly because of the variance, and partly because government has more of a long term interest in the viability of the citizenry, even if it weren't especially democratic per se. And similarly, there's a huge value in a currency that gradually loses value over time rather than being up or down 5% in a day and 30% in a few weeks. The whole point of currency is that it's not a long term investment asset, but a tool for trade, isn't it? So why would long run inflation be relevant?

a1369209993 5y ago
> BTC seems to be about 10 times more volatile than the dollar on a daily basis. They're not talking about volatility; they're talking about the average trend over time.
- perl4ever 5y ago
  I know. My point was this is the wrong focus, because of what currency is by nature. Short term volatility is a big disadvantage, while gradual loss in value doesn't matter for something that's not a long term investment. I owe way more money than I have in cash, as does almost everyone, and my loans being in nominal currency, inflation only helps.
  - a1369209993 5y ago
    > My point was this is the wrong focus, because of what currency is by nature. Ah, fair enough. That said: > I owe way more money than I have in cash, as does almost everyone, and my loans being in nominal currency, inflation only helps. This only works if you have a effective means of prohibiting (any) interest on those loans (ie anti-usury laws that actually have teeth). Otherwise the lender just bakes inflation into the interest.
    - perl4ever 5y ago
      I don't know if you are American, but it's common here to have 30 year fixed rate mortgages. I gather that's rare most other places. So I'm supposing a typical scenario where a person borrowed or refinanced recently to lock in very low inflation expectations. That said, there are variable rate loans, but last year some lenders were actually offering such loans at a noticeable discount to prime (albeit with a floor that is above prime for now).
      - a1369209993 5y ago
        > 30 year fixed rate mortgages. That helps a little, but relies on lenders underestimating future inflation. If they can predict X% inflation, they can price that into the initial fixed rate. So it's useful for making damages due to usury less variable - which is helpful for the same reasons insurance is helpful - but it doesn't usefully reduce them.
        perl4ever 5y ago
        >If they can predict X% inflation, they can price that into the initial fixed rate Yes, hypothetically, but they aren't, yet.
  - DickingAround 5y ago
    Yea, but I don't have a problem with volatility. I have a problem with inflation. So, as a customer of this product, you can tell me I should want a lack of volatility. But what I really want is a lack of inflation. And indeed, your note implies that you too are fleeing cash. But I don't want to park all my money in bonds (also being printed like crazy) and houses (also being printed like crazy) or even companies (also being printed like crazy). I'd like to just park it in the IOU-form I earned it in without having it's value stolen or being forced to invest in something being printed like crazy with all sorts of complexity of risks (e.g. debt filled companies, real estate I have to rent or something). Just to have my money not lose value and for me to be able to spend it without someone being able to stop me. And it does that. I'll take the volatility.
scrubs 5y ago
Agree

Qwertious 5y ago

How is that different to investing in any other asset and then selling when you need to spend fiat currency, though?