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POW is permissionless, in that you don't need anyone's permission to setup a mining rig and contribute significant work. POS isn't permissionless -- you litera

POW is permissionless, in that you don't need anyone's permission to setup a mining rig and contribute significant work. POS isn't permissionless -- you literally have to buy a stake from existing holders in order to participate.

kelnos 5y ago
The money to build a mining rig and consume the electricity needed to run it is not even remotely permissionless. To add insult to injury, most miners ignore the externalities of that electricity use.
- chrischattin 5y ago
  It costs a couple hundred bucks to setup the hardware to run a Bitcoin node. As of today's exchange rate, you need ~$130k to stake ETH.
  - drdeca 5y ago
    Wait, to run a node (like, just keeping track of the chain), or to mine in a way that isn’t entirely ineffectual? Because the former doesn’t seem like the proper analogy to staking.
    - chrischattin 5y ago
      You can mine with a Raspberry Pi. It won't be profitable. But, you'll be contributing to the security of the network.
      - drdeca 5y ago
        What is the impact of a miner on the security of the network, conditioned on the event that it never successfully mines a block? I would think it would be 0. The probability that a raspi ever mines a block (like, if it were to start now, not if it was going since the network first started) is negligible. Therefore, I consider the probability that a given raspi would contribute to the security of the network, or, I suppose equivalently, the degree to which it contributes, to be negligible.
        chrischattin 5y ago
        The way I understand it, nodes help validate transactions in real time. They keep everyone else honest. Otherwise, whoever mined the block could inject whatever they wanted. Everyone on the network is validing transactions.
        drdeca 5y ago
        Sure, that's running a node. That's not mining. That's not analogous to staking. The analogy to staking would be mining. The analogy to running a bitcoin node would be running some variety of ethereum node, not staking.
  - SwagtimusPrime 5y ago
    It also costs a couple hundred bucks to run an Ethereum node. You are confusing running a validator and running a node, those are two independent things, just like mining and running a node.
- lmm 5y ago
  > The money to build a mining rig and consume the electricity needed to run it is not even remotely permissionless. Yes it is. You can manufacture your own mining rig, with no-one else's permission, without ever needing to so much as communicate with anyone who currently holds any bitcoin. > To add insult to injury, most miners ignore the externalities of that electricity use. Most cryptocurrency developers ignore the externalities of all the crime they're enabling, so it's not like the miners are any worse.

kelnos 5y ago

The money to build a mining rig and consume the electricity needed to run it is not even remotely permissionless. To add insult to injury, most miners ignore the externalities of that electricity use.

chrischattin 5y ago
It costs a couple hundred bucks to setup the hardware to run a Bitcoin node. As of today's exchange rate, you need ~$130k to stake ETH.
- drdeca 5y ago
  Wait, to run a node (like, just keeping track of the chain), or to mine in a way that isn’t entirely ineffectual? Because the former doesn’t seem like the proper analogy to staking.
  - chrischattin 5y ago
    You can mine with a Raspberry Pi. It won't be profitable. But, you'll be contributing to the security of the network.
    - drdeca 5y ago
      What is the impact of a miner on the security of the network, conditioned on the event that it never successfully mines a block? I would think it would be 0. The probability that a raspi ever mines a block (like, if it were to start now, not if it was going since the network first started) is negligible. Therefore, I consider the probability that a given raspi would contribute to the security of the network, or, I suppose equivalently, the degree to which it contributes, to be negligible.
      - chrischattin 5y ago
        The way I understand it, nodes help validate transactions in real time. They keep everyone else honest. Otherwise, whoever mined the block could inject whatever they wanted. Everyone on the network is validing transactions.
        drdeca 5y ago
        Sure, that's running a node. That's not mining. That's not analogous to staking. The analogy to staking would be mining. The analogy to running a bitcoin node would be running some variety of ethereum node, not staking.
- SwagtimusPrime 5y ago
  It also costs a couple hundred bucks to run an Ethereum node. You are confusing running a validator and running a node, those are two independent things, just like mining and running a node.
lmm 5y ago
> The money to build a mining rig and consume the electricity needed to run it is not even remotely permissionless. Yes it is. You can manufacture your own mining rig, with no-one else's permission, without ever needing to so much as communicate with anyone who currently holds any bitcoin. > To add insult to injury, most miners ignore the externalities of that electricity use. Most cryptocurrency developers ignore the externalities of all the crime they're enabling, so it's not like the miners are any worse.