13 ms·

I think the OP is just making an observation not a value statement consider his last bit is he doesn't know whether or not its a good thing. I also think this k

by xphos 5y ago

I think the OP is just making an observation not a value statement consider his last bit is he doesn't know whether or not its a good thing. I also think this kinda doesn't follow because during down turns higher ups also commit suicide at much higher rates because they are likely to fall from much higher up. If you are already poor continuing to be poor while terrible isn't really a change in your perceived state

dumbfoundded 5y ago
Yeah, I was trying to make more of an observation as opposed to a value judgement. I do think it's important to recognize the role of desperation because it's a powerful but negative motivator. It's really a mixed bag. Kind of like how are biggest scientific achievements have all been funded by the military in an attempt to more efficiently kill each other. I'm not sure what the balance should be.
- afarrell 5y ago
  I think we should ask which particular humans are desperate and which are curious. Thousands of scientists and engineers would not have been motivated to work on ballistic rocketry and guidance systems if they had not been curious to learn about the moon and outer space. Congress would never have spent 4% of the 1966 US federal budget on the Apollo program[1] if it had not been desperate to tell allies and enemies about our ability to land a payload in Leningrad. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_program# https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_program#
  - dumbfoundded 5y ago
    It seems like the desperation is the more powerful motivator but carries significant side effects. I wonder if it's possible to motivate people in meaningful ways with only carrot and no stick. NASA inspired millions of children in the 60s and 70s to go into science yet real progress in space technology seems to have only picked up recently. Similarly with nuclear technology, it took 12 years to get from nukes could exist to 15KT yields to 50MT yields but we still don't have fusion and fission reactor designs haven't changed that much in decades despite significant problems. Sometimes I feel like people are change adverse and won't just change things to improve them. People only really change things when there's a significant threat of them getting worse. Reality is surely more complicated and nuanced but I think it will mark a significant change in our evolution when we improve things because we know they can be better instead of racing to avoid a disaster.
    - afarrell 5y ago
      > when we improve things because we know they can be better instead of racing to avoid a disaster. I’d encourage you to read the Wikipedia article on Taylorism and then to read The Toyota Way and/or Leadership is Language.
afarrell 5y ago
Ah, I may have misinterpreted the word “undervalued” as a value statement.
- dumbfoundded 5y ago
  Fair enough. Maybe I should've used "underestimated".

by xphos 5y ago

dumbfoundded 5y ago

Yeah, I was trying to make more of an observation as opposed to a value judgement. I do think it's important to recognize the role of desperation because it's a powerful but negative motivator. It's really a mixed bag. Kind of like how are biggest scientific achievements have all been funded by the military in an attempt to more efficiently kill each other. I'm not sure what the balance should be.

afarrell 5y ago
I think we should ask which particular humans are desperate and which are curious. Thousands of scientists and engineers would not have been motivated to work on ballistic rocketry and guidance systems if they had not been curious to learn about the moon and outer space. Congress would never have spent 4% of the 1966 US federal budget on the Apollo program[1] if it had not been desperate to tell allies and enemies about our ability to land a payload in Leningrad. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_program# https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_program#
- dumbfoundded 5y ago
  It seems like the desperation is the more powerful motivator but carries significant side effects. I wonder if it's possible to motivate people in meaningful ways with only carrot and no stick. NASA inspired millions of children in the 60s and 70s to go into science yet real progress in space technology seems to have only picked up recently. Similarly with nuclear technology, it took 12 years to get from nukes could exist to 15KT yields to 50MT yields but we still don't have fusion and fission reactor designs haven't changed that much in decades despite significant problems. Sometimes I feel like people are change adverse and won't just change things to improve them. People only really change things when there's a significant threat of them getting worse. Reality is surely more complicated and nuanced but I think it will mark a significant change in our evolution when we improve things because we know they can be better instead of racing to avoid a disaster.
  - afarrell 5y ago
    > when we improve things because we know they can be better instead of racing to avoid a disaster. I’d encourage you to read the Wikipedia article on Taylorism and then to read The Toyota Way and/or Leadership is Language.

afarrell 5y ago

Ah, I may have misinterpreted the word “undervalued” as a value statement.

dumbfoundded 5y ago
Fair enough. Maybe I should've used "underestimated".