4 ms·

Yeah, nope. Consider the amount of energy wasted right now and also in similar "industries". https://bitcoinmagazine.com/business/bitcoin-uses-less-than-50-ba

Yeah, nope. Consider the amount of energy wasted right now and also in similar "industries". https://bitcoinmagazine.com/business/bitcoin-uses-less-than-50-banking-energy https://bitcoinmagazine.com/business/bitcoin-uses-less-than-...

tenacious_tuna 5y ago
To me, this says those other "similar 'industries'" should *also* be regulated in this way. We shouldn't excuse bitcoin just because there's other worse offenders, we should address the entire sector. I'll phrase it this way: do high-frequency-trading and coin-mining contribute positively to the world as a whole? Are they producing goods that improve the standard of living on a global scale, tangible or otherwise? Are those good worth the negative environment and social impact their production causes? Assuming HFT/coin mining do indeed contribute in these ways, are there less energy-intensive solutions that could produce the same or a similar effect? I think it's completely reasonable for there to be regulations that limit the global impact of activities (e.g. emissions, global warming, chip shortage) for the good of the general population, especially in relation to how much tangible good they produce. That's the whole point of governments and regulations to begin with; see also, things like leaded fuels, or asbestos, or trust-busting.
- fredfoobar 5y ago
  Sorry, it was more for your "opinion" on PoW, not the carbon tax. > This would immediately make unproductive energy use (cough POW crypto cough) a lot less profitable, You seem to have just one target in mind that would get hit. Clearly you haven't analyzed the full extent of a "carbon tax" and your following statement seemed very naive. That said, I'm all FOR carbon taxes, it is actually good for Bitcoin and the world. I don't think there will be a LOT of PoW cryptos, there will be one (or two at most) winner and the others will use a variation of Proof of Proof (by saving state on a PoW chain). I also think that the energy usage curve will plateau soon-ish and energy usage will be somewhat constant or start trending down gradually (as the rewards are tapering off too).
  - wing-_-nuts 5y ago
    You replied to the wrong guy, but I got you :^) I have no problem with all carbon intensive industries paying for their pollution. I think it would be silly for governments to go around mandating and regulating every little thing that uses energy. Simply tax at the source. Will that make my power bill go up? Yeah. Will that mean it costs more to fill my tank? Yeah. Whatever. I'm totally fine with that. If it's revenue neutral I'll be getting most of it back on my income taxes anyway. Bonus, this now lets me reduce my carbon footprint and pay less taxes. TLDR: Want less carbon? Tax carbon!
    - fredfoobar 5y ago
      Thanks, A carbon tax will be a boon for stranded/wasted energy as well, I wouldn't see why a bitcoin mining operation can't use better sources of energy to mine and be more profitable. It's based on consuming electricity for starters (not natural gas), unlike say ICE vehicles which can't switch to another source of energy.
missedthecue 5y ago
The world financial and banking systems moves literal quadrillions of dollars around the world on an annual basis.
- fredfoobar 5y ago
  You're somehow implying that bitcoin can't do that, how'd you come to that conclusion.
  - missedthecue 5y ago
    Bitcoin already uses a very high percentage of the total energy that the global financial services industry does, and it moves a very small amount of money around to show for it. If the bitcoin network were to move quadrillions of dollars per year, it would probably have to use more energy than we are capable of producing. And bitcoin cannot offer insurance, or retirement and estate planning, it cannot take my company public or help me raise money on the bond market. It cannot facilitate a repo transaction on my real estate portfolio, and it cannot offer me a mortgage to purchase a home.
    - fredfoobar 5y ago
      > Bitcoin already uses a very high percentage of the total energy that the global financial services industry does, and it moves a very small amount of money around to show for it. Citation needed. Citation that counters that perception: https://bitcoinmagazine.com/business/bitcoin-uses-less-than-50-banking-energy https://bitcoinmagazine.com/business/bitcoin-uses-less-than-... > If the bitcoin network were to move quadrillions of dollars per year, it would probably have to use more energy than we are capable of producing Sigh, this gets spouted like it's the truth by people who don't understand the simple fact that the energy usage in bitcoin is NOT used on transactions! and it DOES NOT scale with the number of transactions!. [1] > And bitcoin cannot offer insurance, or retirement and estate planning, it cannot take my company public or help me raise money on the bond market. It cannot facilitate a repo transaction on my real estate portfolio, and it cannot offer me a mortgage to purchase a home. These are the usecases for subsequent layers, and there are services popping up for these already! bitcoin is a relatively young system that is purely community driven. [1]: https://www.coindesk.com/frustrating-maddening-all-consuming-bitcoin-energy-debate https://www.coindesk.com/frustrating-maddening-all-consuming...

tenacious_tuna 5y ago

To me, this says those other "similar 'industries'" should *also* be regulated in this way. We shouldn't excuse bitcoin just because there's other worse offenders, we should address the entire sector. I'll phrase it this way: do high-frequency-trading and coin-mining contribute positively to the world as a whole? Are they producing goods that improve the standard of living on a global scale, tangible or otherwise? Are those good worth the negative environment and social impact their production causes? Assuming HFT/coin mining do indeed contribute in these ways, are there less energy-intensive solutions that could produce the same or a similar effect? I think it's completely reasonable for there to be regulations that limit the global impact of activities (e.g. emissions, global warming, chip shortage) for the good of the general population, especially in relation to how much tangible good they produce. That's the whole point of governments and regulations to begin with; see also, things like leaded fuels, or asbestos, or trust-busting.

fredfoobar 5y ago
Sorry, it was more for your "opinion" on PoW, not the carbon tax. > This would immediately make unproductive energy use (cough POW crypto cough) a lot less profitable, You seem to have just one target in mind that would get hit. Clearly you haven't analyzed the full extent of a "carbon tax" and your following statement seemed very naive. That said, I'm all FOR carbon taxes, it is actually good for Bitcoin and the world. I don't think there will be a LOT of PoW cryptos, there will be one (or two at most) winner and the others will use a variation of Proof of Proof (by saving state on a PoW chain). I also think that the energy usage curve will plateau soon-ish and energy usage will be somewhat constant or start trending down gradually (as the rewards are tapering off too).
- wing-_-nuts 5y ago
  You replied to the wrong guy, but I got you :^) I have no problem with all carbon intensive industries paying for their pollution. I think it would be silly for governments to go around mandating and regulating every little thing that uses energy. Simply tax at the source. Will that make my power bill go up? Yeah. Will that mean it costs more to fill my tank? Yeah. Whatever. I'm totally fine with that. If it's revenue neutral I'll be getting most of it back on my income taxes anyway. Bonus, this now lets me reduce my carbon footprint and pay less taxes. TLDR: Want less carbon? Tax carbon!
  - fredfoobar 5y ago
    Thanks, A carbon tax will be a boon for stranded/wasted energy as well, I wouldn't see why a bitcoin mining operation can't use better sources of energy to mine and be more profitable. It's based on consuming electricity for starters (not natural gas), unlike say ICE vehicles which can't switch to another source of energy.

missedthecue 5y ago

The world financial and banking systems moves literal quadrillions of dollars around the world on an annual basis.

fredfoobar 5y ago
You're somehow implying that bitcoin can't do that, how'd you come to that conclusion.
- missedthecue 5y ago
  Bitcoin already uses a very high percentage of the total energy that the global financial services industry does, and it moves a very small amount of money around to show for it. If the bitcoin network were to move quadrillions of dollars per year, it would probably have to use more energy than we are capable of producing. And bitcoin cannot offer insurance, or retirement and estate planning, it cannot take my company public or help me raise money on the bond market. It cannot facilitate a repo transaction on my real estate portfolio, and it cannot offer me a mortgage to purchase a home.
  - fredfoobar 5y ago
    > Bitcoin already uses a very high percentage of the total energy that the global financial services industry does, and it moves a very small amount of money around to show for it. Citation needed. Citation that counters that perception: https://bitcoinmagazine.com/business/bitcoin-uses-less-than-50-banking-energy https://bitcoinmagazine.com/business/bitcoin-uses-less-than-... > If the bitcoin network were to move quadrillions of dollars per year, it would probably have to use more energy than we are capable of producing Sigh, this gets spouted like it's the truth by people who don't understand the simple fact that the energy usage in bitcoin is NOT used on transactions! and it DOES NOT scale with the number of transactions!. [1] > And bitcoin cannot offer insurance, or retirement and estate planning, it cannot take my company public or help me raise money on the bond market. It cannot facilitate a repo transaction on my real estate portfolio, and it cannot offer me a mortgage to purchase a home. These are the usecases for subsequent layers, and there are services popping up for these already! bitcoin is a relatively young system that is purely community driven. [1]: https://www.coindesk.com/frustrating-maddening-all-consuming-bitcoin-energy-debate https://www.coindesk.com/frustrating-maddening-all-consuming...