4 ms·

Racism, indifference, otherizing, victim blaming, self re-enforcing cycles/punishments(https://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/19/opinion/charles-blow-how-expensive-it-

Racism, indifference, otherizing, victim blaming, self re-enforcing cycles/punishments(https://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/19/opinion/charles-blow-how-expensive-it-is-to-be-poor.html https://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/19/opinion/charles-blow-how-..., is a great example of how we pile on fines) If you want me to point to a single person or law I can't. There are hundreds of them, but very few of them written today are based on the color of your skin, the politicians got wise to that. If you really want to dive into this topic. Then I suggest reading a book or article that covers the topic of racism in America today. Preferably written by a POC.

throwaway894345 5y ago
I've read a lot about it, and much of it has the same problem as your earlier comment--it's too vague to confer any kind of understanding. To be quite clear, I don't actually doubt that there is a prejudice against people of color in the criminal justice system; however, most of the "anti-racist" literature with which I'm familiar doesn't posit a testable model for how the system works to perpetuate injustice, and without said testable model there's no hope for solutions. > Preferably written by a POC. I'm not a big fan of using race as a proxy for academic authority.
- Flozzin 5y ago
  What do you mean by, 'it's too vague to confer any kind of understanding'
  - throwaway894345 5y ago
    It's not enough to characterize every disparate outcome as "systemic racism" and then to "fight systemic racism". We need to talk about what are the specific unjust factors that contribute to these disparities and identify solutions to combat them. An example of putting forth a concrete, actionable model and proposing a solution might be (and note that this is only an example): * jurors are more likely to convict a black defendant than a white defendant * we believe that jurors see racial disparities in crime committance and project them onto defendants * to combat this, we might try promoting cultural integration to reduce the racial disparities in crime committance as well as advocating for colorblind antiracism so jurors are less likely to see a defendant as a token of his race The important thing is that the example (1) puts forth a testable model for how the system works and (2) proposes solutions based on that model. You may find yourself disagreeing with our hypothetical model, and that's fine. Note that you can even debate it because it's testable (you can probably conceive of data which rebut it). This is in contrast to esoteric debates about systemic racism, which seem more religious in nature than useful for combatting unjust disparities.
    - Flozzin 5y ago
      But this is great right? What you just wrote? I'm confused now. Is this what you wanted me to say? This is why I point you to research books or articles. Or even follow actual politicians on what work they are doing. I'm not going to have this. I'm a software developer removed from the issue mostly. But if you know that black people are more likely convicted than a white person(they also get longer sentences for the same crimes), then why are you asking as if you don't know. Overall, you've ended up raising more questions than answering...
      - throwaway894345 5y ago
        > But this is great right? What you just wrote? I'm confused now. Is this what you wanted me to say? I don't know how to parse this. What are you trying to communicate here? > This is why I point you to research books or articles. I'm pretty widely-read on this subject, and yet there is no indication that this is converging on something useful. > Or even follow actual politicians on what work they are doing If the literature isn't forthright, why would a politician be different? Who are the honest, forthright politicians to whom I should be listening? > But if you know that black people are more likely convicted than a white person(they also get longer sentences for the same crimes), then why are you asking as if you don't know. I'm not asking whether black people are more likely to be convicted or not, I'm asking what utility there is in framing the problem with esoterics. > Overall, you've ended up raising more questions than answering... Right, I'm asking a question, and explicitly not positing any answers, so of course I'm raising more questions than answers.
    - thatcat 5y ago
      95% of trials don't go to a jury
      - chx 5y ago
        To be fair, jury trials look medieval for people who come from a country where judges are professionals. And plea deals, don't even get me started.
- chx 5y ago
  Ah, the system is really simple. Since 1964 at least it is. Some rich white men convinced a majority of American whites anything is better than "handouts" to people of color. They can and do rely on this majority to vote themselves into ruin if that's the price for people of color to get nothing. Instead of living in prosperity together, Americans vote to live in poverty together if that's what it takes. It's astounding. By any measure, the United States by now is a failed state because of this. Hard to believe but it is.
cutemonster 5y ago
> If you want me to point to a single person or law I can't. There are hundreds of them I'd think someone would need to find and make a list of those laws and problems, and ways to explain to the voters how those laws are unfair against POC. And how the laws should be changed, maybe removed, many of them? For a change to happen, there needs to be concrete specific steps of problems and things to actually do (I'm not saying that you or anyone here should do this, just that some people, somewhere, needs to? I'd guess/think that BLM has gotten started a bit? Eg de funding the police, maybe that's one concrete thing to do, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defund_the_police https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defund_the_police)

throwaway894345 5y ago

I've read a lot about it, and much of it has the same problem as your earlier comment--it's too vague to confer any kind of understanding. To be quite clear, I don't actually doubt that there is a prejudice against people of color in the criminal justice system; however, most of the "anti-racist" literature with which I'm familiar doesn't posit a testable model for how the system works to perpetuate injustice, and without said testable model there's no hope for solutions. > Preferably written by a POC. I'm not a big fan of using race as a proxy for academic authority.

Flozzin 5y ago
What do you mean by, 'it's too vague to confer any kind of understanding'
- throwaway894345 5y ago
  It's not enough to characterize every disparate outcome as "systemic racism" and then to "fight systemic racism". We need to talk about what are the specific unjust factors that contribute to these disparities and identify solutions to combat them. An example of putting forth a concrete, actionable model and proposing a solution might be (and note that this is only an example): * jurors are more likely to convict a black defendant than a white defendant * we believe that jurors see racial disparities in crime committance and project them onto defendants * to combat this, we might try promoting cultural integration to reduce the racial disparities in crime committance as well as advocating for colorblind antiracism so jurors are less likely to see a defendant as a token of his race The important thing is that the example (1) puts forth a testable model for how the system works and (2) proposes solutions based on that model. You may find yourself disagreeing with our hypothetical model, and that's fine. Note that you can even debate it because it's testable (you can probably conceive of data which rebut it). This is in contrast to esoteric debates about systemic racism, which seem more religious in nature than useful for combatting unjust disparities.
  - Flozzin 5y ago
    But this is great right? What you just wrote? I'm confused now. Is this what you wanted me to say? This is why I point you to research books or articles. Or even follow actual politicians on what work they are doing. I'm not going to have this. I'm a software developer removed from the issue mostly. But if you know that black people are more likely convicted than a white person(they also get longer sentences for the same crimes), then why are you asking as if you don't know. Overall, you've ended up raising more questions than answering...
    - throwaway894345 5y ago
      > But this is great right? What you just wrote? I'm confused now. Is this what you wanted me to say? I don't know how to parse this. What are you trying to communicate here? > This is why I point you to research books or articles. I'm pretty widely-read on this subject, and yet there is no indication that this is converging on something useful. > Or even follow actual politicians on what work they are doing If the literature isn't forthright, why would a politician be different? Who are the honest, forthright politicians to whom I should be listening? > But if you know that black people are more likely convicted than a white person(they also get longer sentences for the same crimes), then why are you asking as if you don't know. I'm not asking whether black people are more likely to be convicted or not, I'm asking what utility there is in framing the problem with esoterics. > Overall, you've ended up raising more questions than answering... Right, I'm asking a question, and explicitly not positing any answers, so of course I'm raising more questions than answers.
  - thatcat 5y ago
    95% of trials don't go to a jury
    - chx 5y ago
      To be fair, jury trials look medieval for people who come from a country where judges are professionals. And plea deals, don't even get me started.
chx 5y ago
Ah, the system is really simple. Since 1964 at least it is. Some rich white men convinced a majority of American whites anything is better than "handouts" to people of color. They can and do rely on this majority to vote themselves into ruin if that's the price for people of color to get nothing. Instead of living in prosperity together, Americans vote to live in poverty together if that's what it takes. It's astounding. By any measure, the United States by now is a failed state because of this. Hard to believe but it is.

cutemonster 5y ago

> If you want me to point to a single person or law I can't. There are hundreds of them I'd think someone would need to find and make a list of those laws and problems, and ways to explain to the voters how those laws are unfair against POC. And how the laws should be changed, maybe removed, many of them? For a change to happen, there needs to be concrete specific steps of problems and things to actually do (I'm not saying that you or anyone here should do this, just that some people, somewhere, needs to? I'd guess/think that BLM has gotten started a bit? Eg de funding the police, maybe that's one concrete thing to do, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defund_the_police https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defund_the_police)