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Right. Similar to a liquid fueled car, but worse than an electric car in most circumstances. But the problem is there will never be an equivalent hydrogen netw
by Robotbeat 5y ago
Right. Similar to a liquid fueled car, but worse than an electric car in most circumstances.
But the problem is there will never be an equivalent hydrogen network as there is gasoline network because hydrogen fueling stations are far more expensive to install and maintain. Either the station overhead ends up much higher than gasoline or hydrogen is used much more rarely.
Electric car distance records as of 2018 are 1178km in a Model S and 1001km in a Model 3. https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-s-model-3-hypermile-world-records/amp/ https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-s-model-3-hypermile-wo...
Model S Plaid+ next year is supposed to have ~50% greater range than the Model S used in that 2018 record. And has a nationwide charging network (and access to other EV charging networks, which themselves are becoming impressive... Lucid Air’s offering is also impressive).
I just don’t see the attraction of hydrogen any more besides niche applications.
The vehicles are much more expensive (Model 3 way cheaper than equivalent range Toyota Mirai), the charging is far less convenient and totally unavailable outside California, they’re slower, and the fuel is vastly more expensive, and they’re fundamentally less energy efficient. Heck, the Model 3 LR actually weighs less and has more range than the Toyota Mirai.
Hydrogen cars are a bonfire of money.
Conventional carmakers insistent on fast fueling capability ought to do plug-in hybrid. Even if you use synthesized fuel for the few trips that go beyond the electric range, the cost per mile (and cost per vehicle) would be way lower than hydrogen and you could use existing gas stations (although we’d need a lot fewer of them), and you still get the logistical benefit of home/work charging for commutes.
You could switch everyone’s car for a plug in hybrid version today and they wouldn’t even know except it’d sound different. We could ban new vehicles without a plug and it wouldn’t ruin anyone’s corner case commute and a lot of people wouldn’t even realize it at first (just like many don’t realize they drive a mild hybrid). This is a far better argument than hydrogen cars’ “liquid fueling like experience! But only in a handful of stations in California at enormous expense...”
- nobleach 5y agoI think the two biggest sellers of Hydrogen electric over battery electric, are the fact that batteries have a useful life. That life degrades over time. Hydrogen doesn't have this characteristic. Secondly, cold weather doesn't affect Hydrogen electric vehicles the way that it does with battery electric. If one lives in a cold weather climate, owning a Tesla isn't as advantageous.
- _ph_ 5y agoBoth the pressure tanks as well as the fuel cells themselves degrade over time and need to be maintained and replaced.
- Robotbeat 5y agoabsolutely wrong. Hydrogen fuel cells absolutely degrade over time (they are batteries! Just with more maintenance required due to needing fluids pumped through them). Their lifetime for automotive applications is about 5000 hours, or 150,000-200,000 miles, which is less than what a Model 3’s battery will last. https://www.hydrogen.energy.gov/pdfs/progress18/tahi_lohse-busch_2018.pdf https://www.hydrogen.energy.gov/pdfs/progress18/tahi_lohse-b... Cold weather isn’t a major problem, either, you just will want to get a heat pump option. Electric cars are insanely popular in Norway, and it doesn’t seem to be a significant problem.
- merb 5y agothey even need a battery aswell which will wear. since the cell is too sluggish to be fed directly to the electric motor.
- audunw 5y ago> Hydrogen doesn't have this characteristic. Hydrogen itself doesn't. But the fuel cells do. I can imagine there will be problems with the plumbing as well, as hydrogen has a tendency to make materials it comes into contact with brittle. > If one lives in a cold weather climate, owning a Tesla isn't as advantageous. Eh, it's fine. Norway is the EV capital of the world. Range is decreased, but it's not really a problem in day-to-day driving. We have an older 30kWh EV, with less than 100km range in winter. It's almost never an issue. Even driving 2 hours to a cabin is fine with a fast-charge that takes less time than buying groceries next to the fast charge station. In colder climates, it's more common for people to have garages where they can charge at home. There are even colder areas, and remote areas where the range really is a big issue, but then we're talking about areas with very small populations. If all of them continue to drive diesel cars, it'll be a microscopic blip in terms of global CO2 emissions.
- jdblair 5y agoJust for the record, I agree H2 fueled cars make terrible sense. On top of the points you make, hydrogen is simply too hard to store.
- judge2020 5y agoI thought it sounded expensive hearing that Tesla's high-powered superchargers cost hundreds of thousands of dollars[0], but apparently hydrogen stations can cost north of 2 million dollars[1]. 0: https://techcrunch.com/2013/07/26/inside-teslas-supercharger-partner-program-the-costs-and-commitments-of-electrifying-road-transport/?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAACIqlFFq1UMPJ_liK7Y-otmMfoU101asFwYdnv2YgTrjAX6--OXcjME62j_yFSP2HWRkkiVDIKf_vlkWzhtRFtvt-jc4K3ylS-ncCZfuW5CHCYiWUvESByLvsW194q0SpIpNbRAiv6pWNA7AUo-wyqPZFmtRBb8_zxZg28qakKpE#:~:text=the%20cost%20for%20tesla%20is%20between https://techcrunch.com/2013/07/26/inside-teslas-supercharger... 1: https://www.wardsauto.com/technology/costs-check-growth-fuel-cell-infrastructure#:~:text=while%20costs%20differ%20by%20country%2C%20region%20and%20station%20size%2C%20franc%20reports%20the%20current%20cost%20to%20construct%20a%20hydrogen%20fueling%20station%20is%20between https://www.wardsauto.com/technology/costs-check-growth-fuel...
- Robotbeat 5y agoYeah, and a Level 2 charger could be mere thousands, and a Level 1 outlet a couple hundred.