6 ms·

The 1788 Doctors' Riot

58 points by tuxxy 5y ago

smcl 5y ago
I was surprised not to see any mention of Burke & Hare under the “See Also” section: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burke_and_Hare_murders https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burke_and_Hare_murders These guys started out doing roughly the same as those doctors - robbing freshly dug graves for anatomical study - but they moved on to killing to provide the bodies instead. Pretty grim
- dmix 5y ago
  One of the classic true crime story. Edit: that facial reconstruction of William Burke is really interesting.
- mariuolo 5y ago
  > but they moved on to killing to provide the bodies instead Wasn't H. H. Holmes also accused of this? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H_H_Holmes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H_H_Holmes)
  - smcl 5y ago
    I hadn't heard of him, but yeah it does seem like the same sort of deal! In case anyone wants a brief summary here's the key bit from that page: """ Holmes had an entrepreneurial spirit. Based on his former medical education and his connections, he was able to sell skeletons to medical labs and schools. "He, and sometimes a hired assistant, were accused of stripping the flesh off the bodies, dissecting them, and preparing the viable skeletons. The rest of the remains would be tossed in pits of lime or acid, effectively breaking down the remaining evidence." """
- PeterWhittaker 5y ago
  It's there now! Was added after you wrote this and before I read your comment.
  - smcl 5y ago
    Oh great! I was considering adding it later on but I was on the tram and didn't fancy fiddling with wikipedia on my phone :D
dm319 5y ago
Fascinating. It is quite shocking to read about our world not so long ago. I did dissection at university from a cadavar donated for education. We attended a service afterwards, prior to the cremation. I was very grateful to have the chance to learn from it in a way that would have been almost impossible using prosections or models.
iDisagreedEar 5y ago
I'd love a good riot against Physicians in 2021. 2 centuries of corruption has lined their pockets and caused the rest of us to avoid medical care. I say this as I'm married to a doctor taking home 200-250k/yr. I don't mind shooting myself in the foot to save life.
- neffy 5y ago
  Strictly this problem is fairly local to the US - other countries manage to not have an engineered shortage of medically trained folks, and provide general, non-bankrupting, insurance schemes to pay them for their expertise.
- msrenee 5y ago
  I would look up the ladder before blaming physicians. It's not the high salary of the doctor that's inflated the cost of medical care. It's insurance, middlemen, overpaid administrators, and the general move to for-profit medicine that's to blame in my experience. Doctors make good money, but they also go through 8 years of expensive schooling to get there and are often just making ends meet for years after school.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - moshmosh 5y ago
    Everything's part of the problem. It's why it's so hard to find "the thing" that causes high US healthcare costs. Every single part of it is more expensive than it should be, including doctors, and it all adds up to a system that's way more expensive than it should be, without any single entity or group being responsible for most of the problem.
    - msrenee 5y ago
      I guess I feel like someone who did 8 years of school and I believe 4 years of residency which altogether generally costs them over $100k should be compensated for those expenditures of time and money. I don't feel that an aspirin should cost $5 just because you're laying in a hospital bed. Maybe it's the opacity surrounding billing. What exactly costs $7k when you are hospitalized for 3 days? Hell, let's skip the ER and the procedures and go with a mental health inpatient stay. There's 72 hours of oversight by the staff. If they're making $20/hour, which isn't off-base to my knowledge and may be generous as they generally aren't BSNs, that's $1440 in wages. Food for 3 days and maybe an hour, hour and a half of the doctor's time over the course of 3 days, and medication. Those additional things don't add up to the remaining $5,560. Even with the cost of the building, electricity, janitors, it doesn't add up. So why does it cost so much for a 3 day stay without an emergency medical procedure?
JoeAltmaier 5y ago
<pedantry> No doctors actually rioted; thus the title words Doctors' Riot seems strange </pedantry>
- nwsm 5y ago
  I agree. The implication is the opposite of reality, and I can't help but feel it's intentional.
  - etrevino 5y ago
    It's not intentional. It's just that how we described riots changed from the 18th C to today. Now we often describe who is rioting in the name of the riot. Back then they would often describe what sparked the riot in the name as opposed to who was rioting.
- etrevino 5y ago
  In that era riots were often named for locations or the thing/person/event that instigated them. So, rather than it being a statement of who was rioting, it was an assertion for the reason for the riot. That's why we have the Sacheverell (sp?) and Gordon Riots: the first was sparked by the prosecution of an important prelate, the second was instigated by an English nobleman who opposed the restoration of rights to Catholic Englishmen.
redis_mlc 5y ago
Just for context, in that time, the countries including Japan who didn't use bodies for medical training ended up a century behind the West. Japanese doctors and scientists were literally embarrassed when they flipped thru Western anatomy books. In China, the Han custom is not to be an organ donor, hence the start of Falun Gong/Uighur/prisoner transplants, etc., which has turned into a profit center that funds their entire hospital system.

58 points by tuxxy 5y ago

smcl 5y ago

I was surprised not to see any mention of Burke & Hare under the “See Also” section: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burke_and_Hare_murders https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burke_and_Hare_murders These guys started out doing roughly the same as those doctors - robbing freshly dug graves for anatomical study - but they moved on to killing to provide the bodies instead. Pretty grim

dmix 5y ago
One of the classic true crime story. Edit: that facial reconstruction of William Burke is really interesting.
mariuolo 5y ago
> but they moved on to killing to provide the bodies instead Wasn't H. H. Holmes also accused of this? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H_H_Holmes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H_H_Holmes)
- smcl 5y ago
  I hadn't heard of him, but yeah it does seem like the same sort of deal! In case anyone wants a brief summary here's the key bit from that page: """ Holmes had an entrepreneurial spirit. Based on his former medical education and his connections, he was able to sell skeletons to medical labs and schools. "He, and sometimes a hired assistant, were accused of stripping the flesh off the bodies, dissecting them, and preparing the viable skeletons. The rest of the remains would be tossed in pits of lime or acid, effectively breaking down the remaining evidence." """
PeterWhittaker 5y ago
It's there now! Was added after you wrote this and before I read your comment.
- smcl 5y ago
  Oh great! I was considering adding it later on but I was on the tram and didn't fancy fiddling with wikipedia on my phone :D

dm319 5y ago

Fascinating. It is quite shocking to read about our world not so long ago. I did dissection at university from a cadavar donated for education. We attended a service afterwards, prior to the cremation. I was very grateful to have the chance to learn from it in a way that would have been almost impossible using prosections or models.

iDisagreedEar 5y ago

I'd love a good riot against Physicians in 2021. 2 centuries of corruption has lined their pockets and caused the rest of us to avoid medical care. I say this as I'm married to a doctor taking home 200-250k/yr. I don't mind shooting myself in the foot to save life.

neffy 5y ago
Strictly this problem is fairly local to the US - other countries manage to not have an engineered shortage of medically trained folks, and provide general, non-bankrupting, insurance schemes to pay them for their expertise.
msrenee 5y ago
I would look up the ladder before blaming physicians. It's not the high salary of the doctor that's inflated the cost of medical care. It's insurance, middlemen, overpaid administrators, and the general move to for-profit medicine that's to blame in my experience. Doctors make good money, but they also go through 8 years of expensive schooling to get there and are often just making ends meet for years after school.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- moshmosh 5y ago
  Everything's part of the problem. It's why it's so hard to find "the thing" that causes high US healthcare costs. Every single part of it is more expensive than it should be, including doctors, and it all adds up to a system that's way more expensive than it should be, without any single entity or group being responsible for most of the problem.
  - msrenee 5y ago
    I guess I feel like someone who did 8 years of school and I believe 4 years of residency which altogether generally costs them over $100k should be compensated for those expenditures of time and money. I don't feel that an aspirin should cost $5 just because you're laying in a hospital bed. Maybe it's the opacity surrounding billing. What exactly costs $7k when you are hospitalized for 3 days? Hell, let's skip the ER and the procedures and go with a mental health inpatient stay. There's 72 hours of oversight by the staff. If they're making $20/hour, which isn't off-base to my knowledge and may be generous as they generally aren't BSNs, that's $1440 in wages. Food for 3 days and maybe an hour, hour and a half of the doctor's time over the course of 3 days, and medication. Those additional things don't add up to the remaining $5,560. Even with the cost of the building, electricity, janitors, it doesn't add up. So why does it cost so much for a 3 day stay without an emergency medical procedure?

JoeAltmaier 5y ago

<pedantry> No doctors actually rioted; thus the title words Doctors' Riot seems strange </pedantry>

nwsm 5y ago
I agree. The implication is the opposite of reality, and I can't help but feel it's intentional.
- etrevino 5y ago
  It's not intentional. It's just that how we described riots changed from the 18th C to today. Now we often describe who is rioting in the name of the riot. Back then they would often describe what sparked the riot in the name as opposed to who was rioting.
etrevino 5y ago
In that era riots were often named for locations or the thing/person/event that instigated them. So, rather than it being a statement of who was rioting, it was an assertion for the reason for the riot. That's why we have the Sacheverell (sp?) and Gordon Riots: the first was sparked by the prosecution of an important prelate, the second was instigated by an English nobleman who opposed the restoration of rights to Catholic Englishmen.

redis_mlc 5y ago

Just for context, in that time, the countries including Japan who didn't use bodies for medical training ended up a century behind the West. Japanese doctors and scientists were literally embarrassed when they flipped thru Western anatomy books. In China, the Han custom is not to be an organ donor, hence the start of Falun Gong/Uighur/prisoner transplants, etc., which has turned into a profit center that funds their entire hospital system.