5 ms·

I agree, and see a general lack of trust overall, not just government, inhibits the basic, national dialog needed to improve.

hilbert42 5y ago
You're right about the general lack of trust overall, and we do need to improve the national dialog which could begin if people of differing political persuasions started being civil to one another. Substituting—or more accurately I should say—reintroducing proper debate in preference to bitter rhetoric would be a good start. However, this will be a long road and many have entrenched ideas that are going to be hard to change. Thus it seems to me that we need to start with the kids, and first we need to make sure they grow up with solid dependable ethics. Not that I think any of this will be easy as one only has to look at the Ages 18-29 statistics on that graph in the article to realize how little trust young people have in things generally (that graph is a good indicator of how truly bad things are). Much of this has to with fear, as young people these days grow up to fear and mistrust many things from stranger-danger, the internet and so on. We all know the various reasons for this and it's understandable but it seems to me that we haven't been very successful in simultaneously having them develop sufficient resilience, making them street-wise and so on. (In my opinion having kids grow up and have them be intimidated by the world is a really bad thing but that's what's happening to many of them.) How we achieve this seems a little beyond my reckoning. All I can say is that when other kids my age and I grew up quite some decades ago the world was a simpler place. We kids had freedoms that are undreamt of by today's kids—freedom to roam about wherever I wanted, and this meant that on occasions I got into some quite difficult predicaments that my parents never knew about. In fact, had my mother known then she'd have been somewhat horrified—but in hindsight that was damn good training for life generally. By the standards of the day, my parents looked after me as well as any other kid, in fact I would consider them overprotective, especially so my mother. Nevertheless, my independence developed at an early age and was quite robust. For example, by the age of ten I'd become a reasonably seasoned solo traveler. I would often travel from one city to another completely by myself (door-to-door from my parents' home to that of relatives). I walk alone to train station (about 3-4 miles), buy a train ticket then catch an intercity train (still traveling by myself) to large junction station some 70 miles away, change there for a metropolitan local train (many platforms removed from where I'd alighted) that would take me to my relatives' suburb, I'd alight at that stop then walk several miles to my relatives' home and I'd cross several large streets and a major arterial highway in the process. Back then, this was not considered abnormal; as many other kids did the same or similar. (And I need to remind readers that back then there were no mobile phones about, and at the time my relatives did not have the phone connected so my parents did not know if I'd arrived safely or not for some time.) Today, many would consider that allowing a kid to travel alone like that to be child abuse. Incidentally, at no time did I ever feel intimidated by such travel, in fact I always looked forward to it (especially so, as my parents weren't hovering over me and telling me what to do).
- ddingus 5y ago
  I grew up in similar fashion, and with similar freedom. Bad datapoint: To the maximum possible, I free ranged my own kids. They still mistrust. The dominant cultural influence is "everyone just trying to get theirs", fish bowl style. This impacts everything, and yes. Ethics are a challenging conversation. I tried hard. Conditions are just not good. Hard to compete. "But I really need or want mine" is super compelling and can justify a lot. I have a granddaughter to raise. Am trying it again... I agree with what you put here. Can add to civility: much thicker skin and giving people outs to reconsider or make better choices without closing doors on them. I am generally slow to make, and avoid personal judgement. I want to continue talking. It helps a lot, can build trust.
  - hilbert42 5y ago
    I can only agree and sympathize with what you say. One of the few advantages of being our age is that we've experienced both era and we know what has been lost. You hit the nail on the head with your earlier comment in that the 'national dialog needed to improve'. It's extremely difficult to have one's children listen and respect one's point of view when the national dialog among their peers is very different. One needs the zeitgeist to change but from what I see around me I remain pessimistic. Hopefully my view is myopic and I'll be proved dead wrong.
    - ddingus 5y ago
      You and I both! There are encouraging developments. I recently read about a group of young progressives, basically looking for better, more reasonable, equitable social democracy type policy being active, are 16, and doing activism that appears effective enough to put elections into question! They are digital natives, nimble, smart and if they garner any influence from more accomplished activists, will be knocking on doors asking for help. I do not have the link handy, but it should not be too hard to find. The phrase "they do not take orders" from the Democratic Party is in the headline. If that proves real, and is not just being sensationalized, those kids may have somehow picked up on some of what we are discussing as well as the idea of raising the cost of continuing down our current path being effective politics on par with New Deal type efforts familiar to us. So who knows? They have very strong incentives! Rough gig for them right now.

hilbert42 5y ago

You're right about the general lack of trust overall, and we do need to improve the national dialog which could begin if people of differing political persuasions started being civil to one another. Substituting—or more accurately I should say—reintroducing proper debate in preference to bitter rhetoric would be a good start. However, this will be a long road and many have entrenched ideas that are going to be hard to change. Thus it seems to me that we need to start with the kids, and first we need to make sure they grow up with solid dependable ethics. Not that I think any of this will be easy as one only has to look at the Ages 18-29 statistics on that graph in the article to realize how little trust young people have in things generally (that graph is a good indicator of how truly bad things are). Much of this has to with fear, as young people these days grow up to fear and mistrust many things from stranger-danger, the internet and so on. We all know the various reasons for this and it's understandable but it seems to me that we haven't been very successful in simultaneously having them develop sufficient resilience, making them street-wise and so on. (In my opinion having kids grow up and have them be intimidated by the world is a really bad thing but that's what's happening to many of them.) How we achieve this seems a little beyond my reckoning. All I can say is that when other kids my age and I grew up quite some decades ago the world was a simpler place. We kids had freedoms that are undreamt of by today's kids—freedom to roam about wherever I wanted, and this meant that on occasions I got into some quite difficult predicaments that my parents never knew about. In fact, had my mother known then she'd have been somewhat horrified—but in hindsight that was damn good training for life generally. By the standards of the day, my parents looked after me as well as any other kid, in fact I would consider them overprotective, especially so my mother. Nevertheless, my independence developed at an early age and was quite robust. For example, by the age of ten I'd become a reasonably seasoned solo traveler. I would often travel from one city to another completely by myself (door-to-door from my parents' home to that of relatives). I walk alone to train station (about 3-4 miles), buy a train ticket then catch an intercity train (still traveling by myself) to large junction station some 70 miles away, change there for a metropolitan local train (many platforms removed from where I'd alighted) that would take me to my relatives' suburb, I'd alight at that stop then walk several miles to my relatives' home and I'd cross several large streets and a major arterial highway in the process. Back then, this was not considered abnormal; as many other kids did the same or similar. (And I need to remind readers that back then there were no mobile phones about, and at the time my relatives did not have the phone connected so my parents did not know if I'd arrived safely or not for some time.) Today, many would consider that allowing a kid to travel alone like that to be child abuse. Incidentally, at no time did I ever feel intimidated by such travel, in fact I always looked forward to it (especially so, as my parents weren't hovering over me and telling me what to do).

ddingus 5y ago
I grew up in similar fashion, and with similar freedom. Bad datapoint: To the maximum possible, I free ranged my own kids. They still mistrust. The dominant cultural influence is "everyone just trying to get theirs", fish bowl style. This impacts everything, and yes. Ethics are a challenging conversation. I tried hard. Conditions are just not good. Hard to compete. "But I really need or want mine" is super compelling and can justify a lot. I have a granddaughter to raise. Am trying it again... I agree with what you put here. Can add to civility: much thicker skin and giving people outs to reconsider or make better choices without closing doors on them. I am generally slow to make, and avoid personal judgement. I want to continue talking. It helps a lot, can build trust.
- hilbert42 5y ago
  I can only agree and sympathize with what you say. One of the few advantages of being our age is that we've experienced both era and we know what has been lost. You hit the nail on the head with your earlier comment in that the 'national dialog needed to improve'. It's extremely difficult to have one's children listen and respect one's point of view when the national dialog among their peers is very different. One needs the zeitgeist to change but from what I see around me I remain pessimistic. Hopefully my view is myopic and I'll be proved dead wrong.
  - ddingus 5y ago
    You and I both! There are encouraging developments. I recently read about a group of young progressives, basically looking for better, more reasonable, equitable social democracy type policy being active, are 16, and doing activism that appears effective enough to put elections into question! They are digital natives, nimble, smart and if they garner any influence from more accomplished activists, will be knocking on doors asking for help. I do not have the link handy, but it should not be too hard to find. The phrase "they do not take orders" from the Democratic Party is in the headline. If that proves real, and is not just being sensationalized, those kids may have somehow picked up on some of what we are discussing as well as the idea of raising the cost of continuing down our current path being effective politics on par with New Deal type efforts familiar to us. So who knows? They have very strong incentives! Rough gig for them right now.