4 ms·

But more Palestenian lives are being lost. Purely from a numbers perspective if you put aside all other variables or blame, wouldn't that explain why one side i

But more Palestenian lives are being lost. Purely from a numbers perspective if you put aside all other variables or blame, wouldn't that explain why one side is being criticized extra right now?

LeoNatan25 5y ago
How about criticizing Hamas, a terrorist organization, for shooting rockets at civilian populations of a country with one of the most advanced armies of the world? How about criticizing Hamas for shooting these rockets from civilian centers? Seems like the media is willfully ignorant here. Then you have nonsense like: https://www.vox.com/2014/7/17/5912189/yes-gaza-militants-hide-rockets-in-schools-but-israel-doesnt-have-to https://www.vox.com/2014/7/17/5912189/yes-gaza-militants-hid... Clearly this smells foul.
- sofixa 5y ago
  > How about criticizing Hamas for shooting these rockets from civilian centers? How about criticizing Israel, a country with one of the most advanced militaries in the world, for bombing civilians that can't defend themselves, in retaliation for very basic level attacks by a terrorist group Israel is perfectly capable of defending itself from? Hamas are the bad guys, Israel are even worse because they could show restraint and not murder civilians, not evict Arabs and resettle their lands with Jews and all the other war crimey shit they do, yet they still do that, under a very corrupt leader that mostly stays in power with nationalistic and proto-fascistic rhetoric.
- roelschroeven 5y ago
  How about criticizing both Hamas and Israel for shooting rockets at civilians? Blame can go both ways. On top of that, many people, me included, criticize Israel for illegally occupying Palestinian territory, stealing houses from Arab Israels, and generally treating Palestinians as second-rate citizens and worse. There's simply no excuse for that. Imagine yourself in a situation like that. Whatever you do, whoever you complain to, the situation only gets worse. You're helpless against enormous injustice. While I don't condone violence, I do understand why people resort to violence when everything else fails.
- runarberg 5y ago
  > How about criticizing Hamas for shooting these rockets from civilian centers? Looking at google maps it sure seems that the IDF does the same, keeping their headquarters in the middle of densely populated center of Tel Aviv. Between a large hospital and a shopping mall. https://www.google.com/maps/place/Israel+Defense+Forces/@32.0766787,34.7859726,16z/data=!4m9!1m2!2m1!1sIDF!3m5!1s0x0:0xcb45a952248469a5!8m2!3d32.0757868!4d34.79028!15sCgNJREZaCgoDaWRmIgNpZGaSAQ1taWxpdGFyeV9iYXNlmgEjQ2haRFNVaE5NRzluUzBWSlEwRm5TVVE0ZG1SbFZHTjNFQUU https://www.google.com/maps/place/Israel+Defense+Forces/@32.... If you are gonna both-sides this, you should commit to it.
- banannaise 5y ago
  Are you asking Hamas to walk out into the desert and build a base there? This is equivalent to the Revolutionary War-era Brits telling the colonists to fight fairly instead of hiding in the woods. Fighting fair is for fair fights. In unfair fights, people use the tactics available to them. If Hamas were to build a purely military base, it would be leveled and everyone on it would be dead within two days. One might suspect at that point that they weren't seriously trying. It is not the Palestinians' job to submit quietly to gradual but violent displacement by an occupying outside force. It is also not the Palestinians' job to make a big show of getting murdered in an open field with honor. Those are not the requirements for a people to be defended from ethnic cleansing.
golergka 5y ago
> Purely from a numbers perspective if you put aside all other variables Why would you put aside variables that are more important to casualty numbers? It's not a symmetrical situation. One side tries to increase casualty numbers on both sides of the conflict. The other side tries to decrease casualty numbers on both sides of the conflict. How would comparing casualty numbers in this situation tell you anything about the conflict?
- banannaise 5y ago
  Bombing civilian buildings is not a way to decrease casualty numbers on both sides of a conflict. The more peaceful alternative to bombing civilian buildings is not sending leaflets and then bombing civilian buildings, it is declining to bomb civilian buildings. Using slightly less violence than is available to you does not make you the good guy, especially when the violence you use is drastically higher than the violence that is even possible from the other side.
  - golergka 5y ago
    > civilian Citation needed. If a building is used for warfare, it is not civilian building.
    - banannaise 5y ago
      > If a building is used for warfare, it is not civilian building. Citation needed! Show that all the buildings Israel has bombed were being used for warfare.
- deanCommie 5y ago
  First of all, Israel's goal is not to decrease casualties: https://www.brookings.edu/opinions/an-eye-for-a-tooth/ https://www.brookings.edu/opinions/an-eye-for-a-tooth/ Second of all, even if I accept your premise, that "One side tries to increase casualty numbers on both sides of the conflict. The other side tries to decrease casualty numbers on both sides of the conflict.", then clearly it's not working, right? Regardless of motivations, the outcome is Palestinian lives are being lost at a disproportionally higher rate than Israeli. That must be understood. The standard Israeli response to this is "Hamas uses human shields." OK....so you know this, and are still shooting missiles. That means you are knowingly killing human shields. OK, so maybe these human shields are protecting military equipment. Military equipment that is primitive and is completely neutralized by the Iron Dome. The point I'm making is that even if you accept ALL of Israel's narratives about Hamas, about IDF's strategy (which have all sorts of other problems, such as when they get caught sniping civilians and medical personnel), you still wind up in a situation where you have a massive power differential and one side knowingly killing civilians.
bronzeage 5y ago
This is a war where one side, Israel, attempts to minimize both sides casualties, while the other side, Hamas, tries to maximize both sides casualties, including their own people. Purely from intentions perspective, it's clear who should be criticized.

But more Palestenian lives are being lost. Purely from a numbers perspective if you put aside all other variables or blame, wouldn't that explain why one side is being criticized extra right now?

LeoNatan25 5y ago

How about criticizing Hamas, a terrorist organization, for shooting rockets at civilian populations of a country with one of the most advanced armies of the world? How about criticizing Hamas for shooting these rockets from civilian centers? Seems like the media is willfully ignorant here. Then you have nonsense like: https://www.vox.com/2014/7/17/5912189/yes-gaza-militants-hide-rockets-in-schools-but-israel-doesnt-have-to https://www.vox.com/2014/7/17/5912189/yes-gaza-militants-hid... Clearly this smells foul.

sofixa 5y ago
> How about criticizing Hamas for shooting these rockets from civilian centers? How about criticizing Israel, a country with one of the most advanced militaries in the world, for bombing civilians that can't defend themselves, in retaliation for very basic level attacks by a terrorist group Israel is perfectly capable of defending itself from? Hamas are the bad guys, Israel are even worse because they could show restraint and not murder civilians, not evict Arabs and resettle their lands with Jews and all the other war crimey shit they do, yet they still do that, under a very corrupt leader that mostly stays in power with nationalistic and proto-fascistic rhetoric.
roelschroeven 5y ago
How about criticizing both Hamas and Israel for shooting rockets at civilians? Blame can go both ways. On top of that, many people, me included, criticize Israel for illegally occupying Palestinian territory, stealing houses from Arab Israels, and generally treating Palestinians as second-rate citizens and worse. There's simply no excuse for that. Imagine yourself in a situation like that. Whatever you do, whoever you complain to, the situation only gets worse. You're helpless against enormous injustice. While I don't condone violence, I do understand why people resort to violence when everything else fails.
runarberg 5y ago
> How about criticizing Hamas for shooting these rockets from civilian centers? Looking at google maps it sure seems that the IDF does the same, keeping their headquarters in the middle of densely populated center of Tel Aviv. Between a large hospital and a shopping mall. https://www.google.com/maps/place/Israel+Defense+Forces/@32.0766787,34.7859726,16z/data=!4m9!1m2!2m1!1sIDF!3m5!1s0x0:0xcb45a952248469a5!8m2!3d32.0757868!4d34.79028!15sCgNJREZaCgoDaWRmIgNpZGaSAQ1taWxpdGFyeV9iYXNlmgEjQ2haRFNVaE5NRzluUzBWSlEwRm5TVVE0ZG1SbFZHTjNFQUU https://www.google.com/maps/place/Israel+Defense+Forces/@32.... If you are gonna both-sides this, you should commit to it.
banannaise 5y ago
Are you asking Hamas to walk out into the desert and build a base there? This is equivalent to the Revolutionary War-era Brits telling the colonists to fight fairly instead of hiding in the woods. Fighting fair is for fair fights. In unfair fights, people use the tactics available to them. If Hamas were to build a purely military base, it would be leveled and everyone on it would be dead within two days. One might suspect at that point that they weren't seriously trying. It is not the Palestinians' job to submit quietly to gradual but violent displacement by an occupying outside force. It is also not the Palestinians' job to make a big show of getting murdered in an open field with honor. Those are not the requirements for a people to be defended from ethnic cleansing.

golergka 5y ago

> Purely from a numbers perspective if you put aside all other variables Why would you put aside variables that are more important to casualty numbers? It's not a symmetrical situation. One side tries to increase casualty numbers on both sides of the conflict. The other side tries to decrease casualty numbers on both sides of the conflict. How would comparing casualty numbers in this situation tell you anything about the conflict?

banannaise 5y ago
Bombing civilian buildings is not a way to decrease casualty numbers on both sides of a conflict. The more peaceful alternative to bombing civilian buildings is not sending leaflets and then bombing civilian buildings, it is declining to bomb civilian buildings. Using slightly less violence than is available to you does not make you the good guy, especially when the violence you use is drastically higher than the violence that is even possible from the other side.
- golergka 5y ago
  > civilian Citation needed. If a building is used for warfare, it is not civilian building.
  - banannaise 5y ago
    > If a building is used for warfare, it is not civilian building. Citation needed! Show that all the buildings Israel has bombed were being used for warfare.
deanCommie 5y ago
First of all, Israel's goal is not to decrease casualties: https://www.brookings.edu/opinions/an-eye-for-a-tooth/ https://www.brookings.edu/opinions/an-eye-for-a-tooth/ Second of all, even if I accept your premise, that "One side tries to increase casualty numbers on both sides of the conflict. The other side tries to decrease casualty numbers on both sides of the conflict.", then clearly it's not working, right? Regardless of motivations, the outcome is Palestinian lives are being lost at a disproportionally higher rate than Israeli. That must be understood. The standard Israeli response to this is "Hamas uses human shields." OK....so you know this, and are still shooting missiles. That means you are knowingly killing human shields. OK, so maybe these human shields are protecting military equipment. Military equipment that is primitive and is completely neutralized by the Iron Dome. The point I'm making is that even if you accept ALL of Israel's narratives about Hamas, about IDF's strategy (which have all sorts of other problems, such as when they get caught sniping civilians and medical personnel), you still wind up in a situation where you have a massive power differential and one side knowingly killing civilians.

bronzeage 5y ago

This is a war where one side, Israel, attempts to minimize both sides casualties, while the other side, Hamas, tries to maximize both sides casualties, including their own people. Purely from intentions perspective, it's clear who should be criticized.