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I have been fascinated with Göbekli Tepe since I first heard of it. I really do think we need to rethink our idea of civilization and that it likely stretches
by edgyquant 5y ago
I have been fascinated with Göbekli Tepe since I first heard of it. I really do think we need to rethink our idea of civilization and that it likely stretches back (as loose groups) tens of thousands of years. However, the common definition of civilization as it stands does not include sites like these. Göbekli Tepe Is thought by archaeologists to be a a pre-Neolithic or early Neolithic and that it is more of a site where tribes, who were otherwise hunter gatherers, would meet for religious purposes. Jericho is another where we have an actual city that is thought to be made up of non farmers who were otherwise sedentary. This doesn’t meant that the article is wrong about farming being crucial to Göbekli Tepe but it does mean that archaeologists aren’t seeing all of the signs of a true civilization which they tend to care more about writing than farming per say.
I do think writing as we know it stretches back just not as an alphabet but more as tally marks and cave painting. A lot of information can be exchanged that way and we do have records of cultures going back >20,000 years using these.
I think if you went back a few tens of thousand years you would see culture that are a lot closer to civilization than we like to think. But again, they wouldn’t fit the current definition of civilization.
- babesh 5y agoThe Iliad and the Odyssey were originally oral works in a prehistoric (pre-writing) culture. Transmission of culture was done orally and visually just as they are today. Culture wasn't just technology. It was also origin stories of the tribe, origin stories of the universe, and so on. A lot of information can be exchanged orally and visually without writing.
- edgyquant 5y agoDefinitely I guess my point is more that our definition of what constitutes writing seems to be arbitrary when we do have “writing” that goes back ~20k years it just isn’t letters representing sounds. I mentioned tally marks and we’ve found them all over the place. If our definition has to be that people use an alphabet to record sentences then civilization under the definition of writing + multiple city states may not be moved back. But I think that doesn’t capture a large (like 2-3 times as long) span of time in which there were “civilizations” and it’s really a shame.
- alexgmcm 5y agoI think that isn't defined as a writing system as you can only record numerical data. Same as how the Inca Quipu[1] isn't generally defined as writing, despite the fact it seems they may have encoded some non-numerical information such as provinces for accounting purposes - like having a province_id in a database. You can keep track of taxes etc. with a system like Quipu, but you couldn't write down the Iliad with it. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quipu https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quipu
- darkhorse13 5y agoI think the modern, mainstream opinion underrates oral traditions greatly, which is to be expected because we only practice empiricism in our world. However, oral traditions are very important in a lot of cultures around the world, and they have been for a long, long time.
- solipsism 5y agoWhat do you base this on?
- irrational 5y agoWhat does he base what on? The importance of empiricism in the modern world? The importance of oral storytelling and teaching in the ancient world? Both of those are extremely well known and documented, so I assume you mean something else.
- solipsism 5y agoI think the modern, mainstream opinion underrates oral traditions greatly When you go against the opinion of mainstream experts, you should have some evidence of rationale.
- edgyquant 5y agoBut they aren’t going against it, they are saying that (for kind of obvious reasons) most people don’t look to oral tradition as a sign of civilization. Mostly because it’s impossible to date and verify oral tradition.
- meristohm 5y agoWhile the process of science might be done well enough, is it a case of looking under the lamppost for our keys that we lost somewhere over there in the darkness? It feels akin to conservation groups in Wales fighting to maintain the barren hills, nevermind they used to be covered in trees before we cleared the land for sheep.[0] [0] Feral, by George Monbiot https://www.worldcat.org/title/feral-rewilding-the-land-the-sea-and-human-life/ https://www.worldcat.org/title/feral-rewilding-the-land-the-...
- mylons 5y agocivilizations come and gone, hopefully throughout the universe, are such a deep romance to me. the ancient egyptians should be enough to get you to this mental state. one of the largest and most mysterious structures in the world was built by them and still exists. expand this concept to the entire universe and boom my mind is blasted.
- christkv 5y agoI would imagine trade centers would be another possibility.
- 99_00 5y ago>I really do think we need to rethink our idea of civilization Why? Civilization is a description, not a value judgment. If a society we value doesn't fit the description the answer isn't to change the description. The answer is to remove the value you are placing on the label.